Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, recently in a couple of threads there has been some discussion of the GW policy in regards to in=store and tourny gaming in regards to using their toys. In some of these I pointed out that in today's enviorment, this policy is all but unenforcable. I stand by this statement. To back this up, I'm reposting something I posted over at Warseer a few years back. I hope it helps explain my line of thinking as well as entertains.

Anyway, on to the post....

Ok, on a lighter note...but one that helps prove a point at the same time...;

In recent thread below I make the point that GW's current policy of only permitting their miniatures in santioned events and in-store gaming is almost completely uninforceable due to the huge numbers of figures in dozens of lines and runs that GW has produced since the late '70s. Let's play a game that lets you test your Citadel knowledge and see if YOU could ID which figures are tourny legal.

Take a look at this group of photos of tourny legal citadel figures and see if you can ID them. I will post the actual answers in a day or three some time after folks have had time to post their tries at it. And no fair checking "The Stuff of legends", the excellent "Citadel Collectors Wikki", or my original Warseer post! Remember that as a tourny organizer you will have to rely on your own knowledge base and memory.

Here we go. Let's start out with an old one. ID these stunties and the range they belong to:


Ok, let's move up a few years and look at our first painted examples. Who are these furry folks and what range do they come from?


Now let's step down the quality level quite a bit. Were do these orcs hail from? Surely they are not tourny legal, right?


Now let's look at another crude figure. Can you ID this one?


Now for a hard one...almost a trick question. You might have seen these guys on another web site. What range are they from? Yes, I assure you they are tourny legal by a strict reading of GW's own rules.


Let's close out with an easy one. Which Citadel range do these Savage orcs come from?


And there you have it. Post your answers and we'll compare note tommorrow. And yes, I promise that I will not make fun of anyone who does not get all these right as you will simply be proving my point.

Have fun!

For the easy ones, the green plastic orcs are from Heroquest (Milton Bradley/Parker Brothers boardgame incorporating Citadel miniatures), the knight below them is from Battlemasters (same deal as the Orcs) and the MED128 Mounted Knights would appear to be from the Foundry catalogue... I don't remember the actual story with these guys, but they were either sculpted for citadel and sold to foundry or produced under license or some such thing.


I'm not sure that this is going to 'prove' anything about tournie rules, though. The rule is as enforcable as a judge wants to make it... and being able to claim that miniatures are 'technically' citadel doesn't stop a judge from deciding that your army isn't suitable for their event.

1) Fighting Fantasy? These Dwarves look to be old Citadel produced probably in the early 80's. The shields make them look Citadel-ish. I think Ral Partha distributed them in the states.

2) Group two are AD&D Bugbears, circa 1984

3) Heroquest, I'm guessing.

4) I'm guessing Imperial Lord Knight from Battlemaster. 1991 or 2???

5) Are these from the Historical range?

6) Sorry, never collected Savage Orcs. Those I could not guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:For the easy ones, the green plastic orcs are from Heroquest (Milton Bradley/Parker Brothers boardgame incorporating Citadel miniatures), the knight below them is from Battlemasters (same deal as the Orcs) and the MED128 Mounted Knights would appear to be from the Foundry catalogue... I don't remember the actual story with these guys, but they were either sculpted for citadel and sold to foundry or produced under license or some such thing.


I'm not sure that this is going to 'prove' anything about tournie rules, though. The rule is as enforcable as a judge wants to make it... and being able to claim that miniatures are 'technically' citadel doesn't stop a judge from deciding that your army isn't suitable for their event.

Yeah, I'm not sure this 'proves' anything. However, all I can say is they can boot my original regiments of reknown pre-slotta Bugmans Rangers from their tourney at their peril. Dwarves get cranky...

My experience has been 100% positive with my older collectible minis. I usually end up with people stopping by and asking to look to see what some of those legendary figures looked like.

I'm not sure that this is going to 'prove' anything about tournie rules, though. The rule is as enforcable as a judge wants to make it... and being able to claim that miniatures are 'technically' citadel doesn't stop a judge from deciding that your army isn't suitable for their event.

That's certainly true to a point. An organzier can pretty much do anything he likes. If he hates Vampire Counts armies he could ban those from his event. Likewise if he simply hates the color red, he could bar you fromk using an army with red as it's primary color. These are unlikely over the top examples to be sure, but you get my meaning. My point is that with a legalistic reading of GW's own rules and the way that most organizers are going to enforce those rules, the rule as written is completely unenforcable. The average just out of school minimum wage earning GW-drone red shirt is simply not going to have the extensive knowledge base of both GW's huge ranges of figures and what is being currently produced out there by other companies to even begin to make the rule stick.

TR

edit:

My experience has been 100% positive with my older collectible minis. I usually end up with people stopping by and asking to look to see what some of those legendary figures looked like.

That's generally been my experience as well. Most people are actually pleased or even excited to see my large collections of classic figures. But I have run into a few jerks who make offhand comments and the like. Most are kids, but some are old enough to know better.

So wait.

What exactly is the point you're making here?

That you've had some jerk who(heaven forbid) was running a tournament and wanted you to use updated figures rather than classics?

I can understand that you'd be annoyed in that case, but you'd able to slip away with it far more easy in Fantasy than 40k. After all, a knight with a lance is...well, a knight with a lance.

But there comes a point where you have to actually make concessions and update your collection rather than be a complete spanker and insist on using outdated and fairly unrecognizable miniatures. ESPECIALLY in tournaments. As you said--there's no way for a rather young redshirt to know about products that Citadel was producing before he was born, is there? Or do you just take some perverse pleasure in annoying people into going onto Stuff of Legends and having to validate each and every miniature in your army? Because I know if I were running a tournament, I'd throw you out for trying to create that much work over something as silly as that.

Not to mention that there is also a scale issue to be considered, in that LOS and cover can be dramatically altered going from a current run of Space Marine Terminator to a classic, original Space Hulk release Terminator(as an example).

Kanluwen wrote:So wait.

What exactly is the point you're making here?

That you've had some jerk who(heaven forbid) was running a tournament and wanted you to use updated figures rather than classics?

I can understand that you'd be annoyed in that case, but you'd able to slip away with it far more easy in Fantasy than 40k. After all, a knight with a lance is...well, a knight with a lance.

But there comes a point where you have to actually make concessions and update your collection rather than be a complete spanker and insist on using outdated and fairly unrecognizable miniatures. ESPECIALLY in tournaments. As you said--there's no way for a rather young redshirt to know about products that Citadel was producing before he was born, is there? Or do you just take some perverse pleasure in annoying people into going onto Stuff of Legends and having to validate each and every miniature in your army? Because I know if I were running a tournament, I'd throw you out for trying to create that much work over something as silly as that.

Not to mention that there is also a scale issue to be considered, in that LOS and cover can be dramatically altered going from a current run of Space Marine Terminator to a classic, original Space Hulk release Terminator(as an example).

OP's point is , there will always be some under informed people that wont recognize old OOP GW miniatures.
and he dont think someone's ignorance / lack of knowledge on GW product should be enough to effect what he is allowed to field or not ( especially he is indeed using legal GW miniatures )

Hence 1 solution , even if the staff doesnt recognize the OOP miniature , he should still allow / believe the person to field it , if only on blind faith alone if he tells them it is.

The part i high lighted in red , i dont believe OP have ANY intentions like that.

Without looking at the other replies I'll take a shot.


GW's original LotR line, early 80s.




Bugbears, they look like they stepped off the page of my AD&D Monster Manual. Did GW do a D&D range? I'll guess Marauder miniatures.



Heroquest? I have some zombies with the same bases.



Battlemasters?




The picture looks like Wargames Foundry, since you say they're legal I will guess they were originally released by GW and then the sculpter took them over to Foundry.




Warhammer Fantasy? Or is that too easy?

The horse is atleast legal , i recognize it as Empire warhorse.

This a nice thread and all, but it's a bit like living in a college town and saying that the underage drinking laws are all but unenforceable in this day and age.

On my desk in front of me is the tiny little plastic Bloodthirster (from the Heroquest game, I think...). I'm going to put the little guy on a 60mm round base and field it as Skarbrand. What could possibly go wrong?

Speaking of OOP, are you ever going to continue the Nurgle WOC army you had going on a while back?

Thanks,
Vlad


P.S. Do you have any spare OOP Traitor Legionnaires backpacks that you wouldn't mind selling?

Whilst some people may not be fond of OOP's, I find them quite exciting.

Like treasures from a long gone age.

Kanluwen wrote:So wait.

What exactly is the point you're making here?

+1

Seriously!

I think it is something along the lines of GW banning older models from their stores.

Kid_Kyoto wrote: Did GW do a D&D range?

Yup. Back in the day Citadel (I believe before they actually merged with GW) produced quite a bit of licensed stuff, including D&D, Judge Dredd and Dr Who, amongst other things.

LunaHound wrote:The horse is atleast legal , i recognize it as Empire warhorse.

The Battlemasters knights were modeled off the Empire knights of the time, but were much more simple sculpts.

solkan wrote:On my desk in front of me is the tiny little plastic Bloodthirster (from the Heroquest game, I think...).

Well, if it's the Heroquest one, it's technically a Gargoyle rather than a Bloodthirster. It just happens to have used the original Bloodthirster model for inspiration...

whitedragon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So wait.

What exactly is the point you're making here?

+1

Seriously!

The point is that Trenchy hates GW, and likes to bring up threads like this from time to time. It let's him strike back against 'the man'. They are half interesting to some people, but really don't have much of a point to most of us. Especially since the amount of "official GW" tournaments is about nil, and most of them would really go to the length to search through your army looking for models they can ban. Someday Jervis will give him a hug and he'll be all better.

Wait, I think he's saying that GW cannot truly enforce it's Tourney Laws.

Sorry Trench, but this seems a bit...too much.

Hey guys, give the op a break. We all moan about GW at some time about some thing and if this is his nitpick with them let him have it. Its been a good memory test for me!

The Dwarves have really thrown me! Don't recognise them at all and I used to collect Dwarves for many a year...
The Savage Orcs look like they are from the late 80's/early 90's.

Mick

The Orcs are definately from Heroquest. I have four boxes i snapped off ebay somewhere. When I played I realeased how much D&D had copied off it.

Bloodthirster wrote:The Orcs are definately from Heroquest. I have four boxes i snapped off ebay somewhere. When I played I realeased how much D&D had copied off it.

I think you mean it copied D&D as thats been around since the 70's...
Mick

When I played I realeased how much D&D had copied off it.

BURN THE HERETIC.

Bloodthirster wrote:The Orcs are definately from Heroquest. I have four boxes i snapped off ebay somewhere. When I played I realeased how much D&D had copied off it.

I laughed so hard that I peed myself a little after reading this.

Of course knowing the GW policy, knowing it is hard to enforce and then using the honor system to only field GW minis is prbably a bit much for some to grasp.

Sure you can use non GW minis and probably get away with it forever. However if you do use non GW and one day get thrown out of a Tourney because the TO happens to be able to recognize them, Don't complain. Just pack your minis and leave.

We ever getting our answers? Did I win? What do I get?

I don't think OP is whining. I think it's a valid point. The stupid rules they set up are impossible to enforce.

First off, thanks to those who have contributed answers to the quiz. I'm going to leave it for one more day before revealing the correct answers to allow more to participate. As it stands now, just as when I posted this originally, some of you got it partially right but no one has gotten them all correct yet.

Second, some of you need to step back and ask yourself "am I actually contributing to this discussion or am I just trolling?". I'm going to let most of the negative comments slide, but I'll adress one quickly:

But there comes a point where you have to actually make concessions and update your collection rather than be a complete spanker and insist on using outdated and fairly unrecognizable miniatures. ESPECIALLY in tournaments.

It's hard for me to express the amount of disgust I have for that line of thinking without venturing into territory that would lead to me being disciplined by the site staff. Seriously, please tell me that you are doing the "parody troll" thing here and do not actually think that way. The idea that miniatures that I bought, assembled, and painted can somehow become "outdated" and thus should be unusable is pretty twisted. I have news for you, sport. Some of us actually PREFER the look of many of the older sculpts rather than the over-done cluttered models of today. But GW would clearly prefer that everyone simply throw out their old collections and guy the all new shiney toys every time something gets redone. GW would be proud of you.


Ok, one other reply:

They are half interesting to some people, but really don't have much of a point to most of us.

Last I checked, Dakka does have an "ignore" feature. You might think about using it if my posts bother you that much...


Anyway, see you all tommorrow with the correct answers. I prepared, but never posted a 40k version of this quiz a while back. I may do it as well if enough people would like to try their hand at it.

Finally, I'll close with some positive, but off topic stuff:

Speaking of OOP, are you ever going to continue the Nurgle WOC army you had going on a while back?

That army was finished almost a month ago. I'm already in the closing stages of my next painting project. (did I tell you I was a fast painter? ) I never updated the painting log as it didn't get any replies, so I thought there was no interest in it.

P.S. Do you have any spare OOP Traitor Legionnaires backpacks that you wouldn't mind selling?

Yes and no. I'll explain if you PM me.

TR

I agree with the Trench on this one.

My guess is that most of the negative comments have come from "Johnny come lately types" who have all the latest offerings from the mighty GW, and have no fear that one day their precious collection may be labelled "OUT OF DATE!"

I wonder if you'd be so snide about the discussion then?

Personally, I think GW models have improved over the years, but thats my personal opinion, and if someone has spent months painting an army back in the day, only to be told by some oink that they should "stop being a spanker" and go out and not only buy a complete new army, but invest the time and effort to paint them, just so some snot nosed red shirt doesn't kick them out of a tornament....to those people, observe my middle finger!

ACtually, if I were to guess it's more a factor that these threads appear every three months or so with the same forced controversy.

Yes, old models are cool. Yes, it's awful that a young guy doesn't recognize a model from 25 years ago and thinks it's a non-GW model. Yes, it must feel like smiting the unholy when you prove a 19 year old kid making minimum wage wrong. Hurray you.

I love old models. My Ig are praetorians, my eldar are nearly all RT or 2nd ed, my marines use exclusively old rhino hulls, and I love seeing them. I guess I've just never had any actual difficulty, or seen the same, with playing with older models, at least when using them as the best possible match. There was a thread where Trenchie tried to sell us old tinboys as killa kans, and that seemed like a stretch, simply because tin boys are closer to Mega armored nobs than anything.

Sorry, I'm still waiting for the point.

Or are your panties still in a twist over being told you can't use models older than I am because the redshirts didn't recognize?

Yes. I am relatively(started in 97) new to the hobby and only just completed an entire army. Yes, I can understand your frustration at being told off by GW's staff. However, I can also understand their side of it from having run a few independent tournaments and getting prize/advertising support yanked from Games Workshop because of one spanker who won and was using nothing but models that were created under license that Games Workshop no longer owned. That is the EXACT reasoning we were told by our representative at the time. And that was some four years ago.

And you also fail to mention that there is never a time where you will be told that you cannot use an army created from older models in a tournament, unless you're being a jerk and fighting them about something small in the first place.

In which case, the tournament organizer just doesn't want you there. Can't say I'd blame him either.

Wow, this is coming out of control right quick.

Lets all take a step back here and just agree to disagree, because it looks like this thread is ripe for a flamefest.

Now, if you have old models I don't see why you can't use them. Anyone who tells you to buy new ones should go soak their heads.

Not sure if any of that was directed my way or not. Is the OP upset that non-GW minis can't be used or that minis from other companies can't be used in sanctioned GW tournies? If it the latter, I would ask him to honestly answer: If you run a company that stays in business by selling an item, whether anyone thinks is it overpriced is irrelevant, would you have an issue with someone bringing a similar item a competitor sells to an even you run?

On the converse to that, I also own more than one mini now classified as OOP. I too, would have serious issues with anyone telling me I can't use those in an official event.