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Kanluwen wrote: Yes. I am relatively(started in 97) new to the hobby and only just completed an entire army. Yes, I can understand your frustration at being told off by GW's staff. However, I can also understand their side of it from having run a few independent tournaments and getting prize/advertising support yanked from Games Workshop because of one spanker who won and was using nothing but models that were created under license that Games Workshop no longer owned. That is the EXACT reasoning we were told by our representative at the time. And that was some four years ago.

And you also fail to mention that there is never a time where you will be told that you cannot use an army created from older models in a tournament, unless you're being a jerk and fighting them about something small in the first place.

In which case, the tournament organizer just doesn't want you there. Can't say I'd blame him either.

There appears to be some contradiction here. On the one hand you say the event you organised had its GW support pulled because some "spanker" (your words) gasp## used models that were originally produced by GW and a license they nolonger own.....sorry, why does that make the player a spanker? and, wait, did the player steal the models? use recasts? rob an old granny to get them?.....becuase if he didn't, the only "crime" he committed, apart from attending a event run by you! was to buy models from GW!! Is it his fault that they no longer own the license? did he revoke their ownership?....did he have any bloody say in the matter?

Now in your next paragraph, you then go on to say, there will never be a time when someone is told they can't use an army made from older models!!

No, I guess not....you just get called a spanker instead.

He's saying that there are disadvantages to using older models in official tournament scenes. He's not saying it's his fault, he is saying that GW revoked the prize support because THEY wanted to, not him.

Well see, here's the biggest issue with it from GW's eyes.

They LIKE getting photographs and the like from their independent events. They LIKE publishing those photos.

The problem is, they leave themselves open if they start publishing photos showing off models from licenses/ranges that they no longer own the rights to. It's the same reason that they didn't show off conversions featuring the movie accurate LoTR stuff mixed with standard Warhammer/40k bits. The other problem is--some of the older stuff, they can no longer produce. They don't want it shown off except in collections, or as a centerpiece for an army which has a balance of The Old and The New.

Again. That's what we were told when we had our prize/tournament support yanked out from under us.

My point is (trolls, fools, and childish fanboys aside) simply this: that the rules regarding in-store gaming anf tournements are unenforcable in the real world. Not that they do not have a right to have said rules in place, but that the number of people capable of enforcing the rules is quite small.

That and to provide and interesting and amusing exercise for the readers of this forum. I regret that some folks simple do not get it....

TR

Delephont wrote:

Kanluwen wrote: Yes. I am relatively(started in 97) new to the hobby and only just completed an entire army. Yes, I can understand your frustration at being told off by GW's staff. However, I can also understand their side of it from having run a few independent tournaments and getting prize/advertising support yanked from Games Workshop because of one spanker who won and was using nothing but models that were created under license that Games Workshop no longer owned. That is the EXACT reasoning we were told by our representative at the time. And that was some four years ago.

And you also fail to mention that there is never a time where you will be told that you cannot use an army created from older models in a tournament, unless you're being a jerk and fighting them about something small in the first place.

In which case, the tournament organizer just doesn't want you there. Can't say I'd blame him either.

There appears to be some contradiction here. On the one hand you say the event you organised had its GW support pulled because some "spanker" (your words) gasp## used models that were originally produced by GW and a license they nolonger own.....sorry, why does that make the player a spanker? and, wait, did the player steal the models? use recasts? rob an old granny to get them?.....becuase if he didn't, the only "crime" he committed, apart from attending a event run by you! was to buy models from GW!! Is it his fault that they no longer own the license? did he revoke their ownership?....did he have any bloody say in the matter?

Now in your next paragraph, you then go on to say, there will never be a time when someone is told they can't use an army made from older models!!

No, I guess not....you just get called a spanker instead.

Okay.
Simply put:
We had our support pulled because the guy who came out on top, rather than using his newer Orc & Goblin army that he'd made the year before--used nothing but HeroQuest figures with the occasional metal hero.
GW informed us that because of the fact that the winning army was made using figures no longer considered their property--he either could retain the prizes and not have the event considered "official", or he could go back and replay the final game using his ACTUAL Orc & Goblin army and risk losing(bear in mind the size difference between a current Orc and HeroQuest Orc. Gee...it's almost as if there's a REASON he used smaller figures!).

He chose to keep the prizes, even though myself and the store owner had to eat a $120 out of pocket expense just for the prizes. In addition to the some $300 we'd spent on renting out a larger space and catering.

So yes. He's a fething spanker.

And you're right. I did say nobody would be told they can't use an out of dated army made from older models.
Unless you're being a jerk about it in the first place. Using smaller models to give yourself an edge, and then starting an argument with the TO because you get called on your bull?

That's being a jerk about it.


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Trench-Raider wrote:My point is (trolls, fools, and childish fanboys aside) simply this: that the rules regarding in-store gaming anf tournements are unenforcable in the real world. Not that they do not have a right to have said rules in place, but that the number of people capable of enforcing the rules is quite small.

That and to provide and interesting and amusing exercise for the readers of this forum. I regret that some folks simple do not get it....

TR

Oh no, they're quite enforcable.

They just aren't.
There's no reason to throw someone who's using a Mordian army out, or a Praetorian army. Those could be considered, to an extent, OOP. As could an army made from the RT plastic Marines/Imperial Army troopers.

It's when people start trying to dick around with the rules and use smaller models to their advantage and exploiting the rule that "models can be based on the base provided" that there's an issue.

Which is how it comes across in your whining.

Kanluwen wrote:But there comes a point where you have to actually make concessions and update your collection

Not to mention that there is also a scale issue to be considered, in that LOS and cover can be dramatically altered going from a current run of Space Marine Terminator to a classic, original Space Hulk release Terminator(as an example).

Completely wrong. I bought the models, and they're legal, so I'm going to play with them. If some n00b can't recognize them, too bad for him.

I have several original metal Termies. You're high if you think I'm rebasing them to 40mm, much less replacing them with overpriced plastic. Not. Gonna. Happen.
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insaniak wrote:

LunaHound wrote:The horse is atleast legal , i recognize it as Empire warhorse.

The Battlemasters knights were modeled off the Empire knights of the time, but were much more simple sculpts.

They were much *stronger* sculpts, due to molding the horse (and wolf) tails into the bodies. It's too bad GW never did this themselves.
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insaniak wrote:

solkan wrote:On my desk in front of me is the tiny little plastic Bloodthirster (from the Heroquest game, I think...).

Well, if it's the Heroquest one, it's technically a Gargoyle rather than a Bloodthirster. It just happens to have used the original Bloodthirster model for inspiration...

Nope, it's technically a Bloodthirster, because that's the exact GW model. Greater Daemons were *much* smaller then. I've seen the full set of "Ogre-sized" pre-WFB5 GDs, and they're so cute!

Now WFB does have a basing requirement, so you'd have to go from 40mm to 50mm, but other than that, people should feel free to take full advantage of the older models being 100% legal for GW competitive play.

What next, worrying that the old 40k Rhino is a smidgen too small? Pfft.

Trench-Raider wrote:My point is (trolls, fools, and childish fanboys aside) simply this: that the rules regarding in-store gaming anf tournements are unenforcable in the real world. Not that they do not have a right to have said rules in place, but that the number of people capable of enforcing the rules is quite small.

That and to provide and interesting and amusing exercise for the readers of this forum. I regret that some folks simple do not get it....

TR

I think you're misreading some of the replies. The rule is enforceable. What I think you mean to say is that "In an extremely small number of cases, it is nearly impossible to always properly enforce the rule, given the breadth and depth of GW miniatures."

It's a case of a simple bias: you seem to engender negative responses to your old models frequently, so you think this happens a lot. 99% of gamers don't have this problem.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:But there comes a point where you have to actually make concessions and update your collection

Not to mention that there is also a scale issue to be considered, in that LOS and cover can be dramatically altered going from a current run of Space Marine Terminator to a classic, original Space Hulk release Terminator(as an example).

Completely wrong. I bought the models, and they're legal, so I'm going to play with them. If some n00b can't recognize them, too bad for him.

I have several original metal Termies. You're high if you think I'm rebasing them to 40mm, much less replacing them with overpriced plastic. Not. Gonna. Happen.
____

I don't see any real issue recognizing Terminators either way, do you?

Maybe the Heavy Flamer/Assault Cannons(if they even have them) or the Cyclone.

I am curious as to why you wouldn't just have them with a detachable 40mm base.

i'm sure there's more back story here, but if I played a tournament with an army that everybody said was legal, won a prize, and then was told I could either replay the final game with another army, or screw over the TO... well, I'd be very tempted to simply walk.

I don't doubt this guy may have been a jerk about other things, but it would suck mightily to win what you thought was the final game and then have to replay. It sounds like your GW trade rep was a jerk, and you're transferring some of it onto the winner. And didn't you have this stuff in writing from GW?


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Kanluwen wrote:I am curious as to why you wouldn't just have them with a detachable 40mm base.

Time & Money.

It's very possible the rep was a jerk. We had a string of good ones, and then a guy who couldn't even get a fething mail order right.

However, the issue to me was the fact that there were a HUGE number of issues that cropped up because of the size of the models versus the current scale ones.

Ex: There was a point where he was able to avoid a round of shooting that would have crushed his 300ish point Black Orc mob because of a weird issue that cropped up with distances. It was a pretty game determining moment, where both sides were grabbing the center objective...and he was only saved because of the size of the models. We played it out later, for a lark, as a Skirmish scenario. When using the proper Black Orc models--they were completely wiped out due to not being considered in cover.

It was a FANTASTIC example of a WAAC player, and I'm glad he's moved to gaming elsewhere.

Polonius wrote:It's a case of a simple bias: you seem to engender negative responses to your old models frequently, so you think this happens a lot. 99% of gamers don't have this problem.

I think your estimate is off, because I think that much less than 1% of all games are tournament games whereby OOP minis are used.

I would hazard to guess that your estimate would be off by at least 1 order of magnitude, and likely 2 orders of magnitude.

That is, I think that the problem of OOP minis manifests itself in less than 1% of 1% of all games played.
____

Kanluwen wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I have several original metal Termies. You're high if you think I'm rebasing them to 40mm, much less replacing them with overpriced plastic. Not. Gonna. Happen.

I don't see any real issue recognizing Terminators either way, do you?

Maybe the Heavy Flamer/Assault Cannons(if they even have them) or the Cyclone.

I am curious as to why you wouldn't just have them with a detachable 40mm base.

40mm bases aren't free. Nor does making them detachable happen with a snap of the fingers.

But the main reason?

I don't play with WAAC tools or TFGs, so it never comes up.

I'm off to work in a moment, so I only have time for a quick reply. Both comments are directed at "kanluwen".

A little over a month ago I took second place in a 40k tourney at one of the local shops using my Squats as "counts as" Space Wolves. (something I still can't believe as I'm far from being a top tier player in my local 40k community) Does that make me a "spanker' too?
Also, what the hell is a "proper black orc" model? What does it look like? Are these models "proper"?

Mind you they are half a head shorter than the current black orc models (especially the crouching one), but they are still official GW product and thus 100% legal in their enviorment.

TR

Sounds good to me then.


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So you did a counts as of the New Hotness of the month, and came in second?

Wow, I'm so surprised. Really. I don't understand how something like that could EVER have happened!

And since apparently you're doing nothing but being contrary for the sake of it:

Yes. I'd say those work just fine as Black Orcs. But when someone purposefully uses a model that is, at the best of times, half the height of the current--that's taking advantage. And being a fething tool.

The idea is that because they are using smaller bases, they can effectively use that to bend the rules in their favor. It doesn't make you a spanker, if anything, it changes what a standard situation would be into a more complicated one.

On one hand, they are still GW models and at least WERE (or still are) legal at some point or another, and therefore should be allowed.

On the other hand, because the physical model in itself is smaller, it changed the result of the game. To some people, that could be seen as deliberate.

Kanluwen wrote:It's very possible the rep was a jerk. We had a string of good ones, and then a guy who couldn't even get a fething mail order right.

However, the issue to me was the fact that there were a HUGE number of issues that cropped up because of the size of the models versus the current scale ones.

Ex: There was a point where he was able to avoid a round of shooting that would have crushed his 300ish point Black Orc mob because of a weird issue that cropped up with distances. It was a pretty game determining moment, where both sides were grabbing the center objective...and he was only saved because of the size of the models. We played it out later, for a lark, as a Skirmish scenario. When using the proper Black Orc models--they were completely wiped out due to not being considered in cover.

It was a FANTASTIC example of a WAAC player, and I'm glad he's moved to gaming elsewhere.

Wait, wait, wait, wait.......NO! You can't come into a conversation shouting "spanker" and then two pages later "explain" why you're using this label.....sorry, thats trolling. Its misleading, and look at the flame war thats erupted from it. Wouldn't it just have easier to explain yourself from the get go?

Now, as far as your story goes.....you had all these issues with a guy, but let him continue to play until he WON!?!?! You, as an organiser, had doubts about his motives for using out of date miniatures, but didn't raise these issues until after he had won the whole tornament? Then you gave him a choice to replay his final game, and risk losing, or walk away with the goodies and have the win classed as "unofficial".....really? You best call me a spanker as well, cause so far the guy hasn't done anything I wouldn't have done.....

Lets get one thing straight. I agree with you on the point about rules (although this wasn't an original parameter set by the OP!) if a game develops from its original incarnation, and the miniatures change with that development, then maybe, theres a good reason to update your forces.....either that, or continue to play the game in its original format with its original miniatures! In tornament terms, and only when it comes to the rules, I totally agree, either update your army, or don't play.....but thats only when the rules of the game are affected.

From the OPs thread starter, I had the impression his rant was not about the miniatures affecting game play, or allowing for a dodge of the rules, simply the fact that the miniatures would not be recognised by the staff, and therefore declared as being NON GW product.....see thats a whole different discussion.

Thank you Cryonic. It's amazing that some would fail to see the logic behind the reason I had a problem with the incident.


But, I would like to note:
I have no problems seeing old armies. Really, I don't. We had a Guard player with a gorgeous Praetorian and Mordian combined army. That same player also had a Marine army made using nothing but the classic RT plastics.
His collection was amazing, and it was always good to see his stuff on the field.

However, we also had that Orc player that I mentioned. Who had, for friendly games(apparently) a beautifully painted and converted army using the latest models, proper base sizes and everything, with a sprinkling of heroes from the classic Black Orc range. We KNEW he had these models.

But then, the first actual tournament we run--he shows up with based HeroQuest figures with a few minor conversions popped in for weapons that would be WYSIWYG.
Then, all of a sudden he had "taken the wrong case" to come to the tournament and his apartment suddenly was being fumagated, etc.

It's the intent behind it that kills it for me.


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Delephont wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:It's very possible the rep was a jerk. We had a string of good ones, and then a guy who couldn't even get a fething mail order right.

However, the issue to me was the fact that there were a HUGE number of issues that cropped up because of the size of the models versus the current scale ones.

Ex: There was a point where he was able to avoid a round of shooting that would have crushed his 300ish point Black Orc mob because of a weird issue that cropped up with distances. It was a pretty game determining moment, where both sides were grabbing the center objective...and he was only saved because of the size of the models. We played it out later, for a lark, as a Skirmish scenario. When using the proper Black Orc models--they were completely wiped out due to not being considered in cover.

It was a FANTASTIC example of a WAAC player, and I'm glad he's moved to gaming elsewhere.

Wait, wait, wait, wait.......NO! You can't come into a conversation shouting "spanker" and then two pages later "explain" why you're using this label.....sorry, thats trolling. Its misleading, and look at the flame war thats erupted from it. Wouldn't it just have easier to explain yourself from the get go?

Now, as far as your story goes.....you had all these issues with a guy, but let him continue to play until he WON!?!?! You, as an organiser, had doubts about his motives for using out of date miniatures, but didn't raise these issues until after he had won the whole tornament? Then you gave him a choice to replay his final game, and risk losing, or walk away with the goodies and have the win classed as "unofficial".....really? You best call me a spanker as well, cause so far the guy hasn't done anything I wouldn't have done.....

Lets get one thing straight. I agree with you on the point about rules (although this wasn't an original parameter set by the OP!) if a game develops from its original incarnation, and the miniatures change with that development, then maybe, theres a good reason to update your forces.....either that, or continue to play the game in its original format with its original miniatures! In tornament terms, and only when it comes to the rules, I totally agree, either update your army, or don't play.....but thats only when the rules of the game are affected.

From the OPs thread starter, I had the impression his rant was not about the miniatures affecting game play, or allowing for a dodge of the rules, simply the fact that the miniatures would not be recognised by the staff, and therefore declared as being NON GW product.....see thats a whole different discussion.

Actually no. I couldn't throw him out for just using old miniatures, now could I? That would be a dick move on my part, now wouldn't it? It was my first time running an event, and I was 19. I had no real reason to mistrust his motive, until we actually came down to it and thought back afterwards. Hindsight is 20/20 mate.

And I'm sorry, this was trolling? Wow, you must not have actually read his first reply to my original reply now did you?

Keep in mind that many of the reasons that make smaller models good are balanced by ways in which they are bad.

As for running Squats as Space Wolves... what exactly is he supposed to run them as?

I don't give a crap what he runs the joke army of its day as. Squats are gone, and I'm happier for it.

However, acting like it's some sort of surprise that he did well using a relatively new Codex that everyone was crying about at the time?

Quite likely, especially when people run a "counts as" army exclusively for tournaments and then acts as if it's some sort of miracle when they use their "counts as" points for the newest army.

I don't give a crap what he runs the joke army of its day as. Squats are gone, and I'm happier for it.

However, acting like it's some sort of surprise that he did well using a relatively new Codex that everyone was crying about at the time?

So what, old models and counts as are no longer allowed?
Last time i checked, they were.
Also, its nice to see an army thats had time spent on it, rather than a basic out of the box army with a few paints slapped on it.

So what then, squats should be used as nids instead?
He kept with the imperial theme of the army, and also followed on with the whole space viking idea.
which, if you havent seen a squat before, is pretty much what they look like.



Just half-pint sized.

Alright, it seems to me that there is a fine line between using older models because you like them/don't want to buy newer models and using them for a game advantage. From what I gathered from Kanluwen's story about the black ork player. It seems that that specific player was definitely out to win by using models that gave him an advantage. However, just because one person did it doesn't mean that everyone does. On the other hand, it also doesn't mean that no one has ever used older models for a gaming advantage either.

If you ban OOP then you piss off the people who bring OOP for the fun of it, and if you allow OOP the WAAC players will ruin it for everyone else.

Both Trench and Kanluwen have valid points, but there is no way to make both sides happy in this instance. Best you can do is let the TO decide who is trying to use older models for an advantage and discipline accordingly, but even then there will be mistakes made and fingers pointed.

Quick example:



Taking the piss: Using a single model or unit that gains an advantage through model / base size.

Collector: Alot of people have full armies that they have had for years, a friend of mine uses his BA, which are pretty much RT models only.
Including the origional speeder models (clanky pieces of crap that allways snap stands)



There is a line in which should be drawn, but in cases when someone has alot of his army as origional models simply because they have had them for years, i wouldnt see a problem.

Kanluwen I have one small point to make.

The original one piece Black Orcs were on 25mm bases still. You were playing Warhammer, model size has nothing to do with the game they are purely representational, you measure to the bases. If the model was behind a wall then even the new black orc models would be counted as in cover. It seems a case of a ruling not being made properly.

Remember fantasy still has the large target rule and woods still block line of sight.

So im curious to see where this issue of model size has come into the game......

Of course if he had based them on 20mm bases then it was an illegal unit to begin with and should have been removed from the tourny as fantasy is very strict on base sizes.

JD21290 wrote:

I don't give a crap what he runs the joke army of its day as. Squats are gone, and I'm happier for it.

However, acting like it's some sort of surprise that he did well using a relatively new Codex that everyone was crying about at the time?

So what, old models and counts as are no longer allowed?
Last time i checked, they were.
Also, its nice to see an army thats had time spent on it, rather than a basic out of the box army with a few paints slapped on it.

So what then, squats should be used as nids instead?
He kept with the imperial theme of the army, and also followed on with the whole space viking idea.
which, if you havent seen a squat before, is pretty much what they look like.



Just half-pint sized.

The point wasn't that he used Squats. The point was that he bragged about coming in second in a local tournament with a "Counts As" Squat army being run as Space Wolves.
I'd say the same thing if next month he plays them as Tyranids or whatever the flavor of the month for the tournament scene is.

I'm sorry but I have to throw the Bullgak flag here on a couple of points. (I'm really sitting here watching this devolve into a real pile of garbage lining up to me as "Oh, you can't use those old models.. YOU have to use the new ones, regardless of how long you've been playing!!"

On that point I call BS.

On the point on LETTING a guy enter a tourny with a load of what was it.. Heroquest figures? I call BS.

On seeing some tourny get a pasting because they let a TFG player WIN said tournament, then actually be SUPRISED that someone from GW comment on it to the negative, I have to say- What do you expect? Obviously to you your winnable winner was wrong for taking the snacks that were offered, but I hate to say it, YOU let him in. You let him compete, and you let him win. THEN when someone OUTSIDE the tourny calls you on it, you act like its TFG's fault.

Admittedly I don't believe this story, but its yours, so hey... I'll play.

The player won? Yes. SO... whats Your problem with it then? Seeing as you didn't call the guy on his BS play. They knew exactly what they were doing, why didn't you?

There is one heck of a difference between GW and Heroquest. Scalewise, definition, base. The difference is there to be seen. If you want to let a scorpion ride on your back, don't cry when he stings you.

You were stung, son!

To the OP... On one hand I'd agree about letting people play with the Old GW models, but tournament army construction should be one of, IF NOT THE main issue on the table for a player to even decide to look into and enter a tourny. On the other, I have to say it is all going to have to depend on the models in question, and Tourny Organizers are the final authority, depending on the models in question.
Obviously, use this other guy as an example of HOW NOT TO USE OOP models, and how they can effectivly KILL your tournament.

As for just arbitrarily walking into a tournament with something completely OOP, you can not expect an organizer to take you seriously. Especially if you let them in and even actually LET THEM play.

As for the use of Squats as Space Wolves... er. No. That doesn't even fly and I don't even believe that you are proud of that.

(TAKE FOR EXAMPLE TFG, who entered this other fellows tounament, ending up WINNING with of all things, Heroquest guys, and basicly, from what is described as a totally TFG move, ends up deep sixing the whole tournament because you actually have one of the GW company representatives show up and threaten pulling support. Are you telling me that a win that would Deep Six the whole tourny would be a win worth having? If so, you my friend are taking WAAC to a whole new level of Newb.

( Personnally, I call BS on this too. seeing as how much a stickler that tourny play is supported by GW when they do actually show up to overwatch events.
These guys are known far and wide for being total D bags when it comes to thier overt witchhunting of all things NON GW in thier tournies.) And if you were ignorant... I call BS on that, as well, seeing as they are overt about thier stance on the models in thier tournies.

GW knows how to be jagoffs at Tournaments. If you want to give them a reason, don't be suprised when they take advantage of the situation to call you out.

Like I said Grot. First time running an event, and didn't know what the hell I was doing.

You can bet your ass he was banned from every other event I ran until he moved for his job.

Trench-Raider wrote:My point is (trolls, fools, and childish fanboys aside) simply this: that the rules regarding in-store gaming anf tournements are unenforcable in the real world. Not that they do not have a right to have said rules in place, but that the number of people capable of enforcing the rules is quite small.

That and to provide and interesting and amusing exercise for the readers of this forum. I regret that some folks simple do not get it....

TR

And in reply, I'll say that your just doing your usual. You own some old models, you don't like GW, and you like to start up arguements. Just means you wore out your welcome somewhere else, so you're back here for a bit. It's a cycle.

I don't really see much of an issue here, at least for the figures posted.

WHFB figs, as long as they're on the right base size, should be fine as-is, no matter how old.

For 40k, then things really start being fuzzy since TLOS plays wonky when you've got some figures from 1983 that's smaller than a current-sculpt Ork that you're using as a unit of Nobz.

As far as the "point" goes. If you were kicked out of an official GW event, because they thought you weren't using Citadel models, and you really were....well then you call up their Customer Service/Event Staff and demand a refund for the event, maybe even more if you can get it out of them since you would have paid room/food to attend it (not that they're running any GT's now anyway).

If it was at a local shop, well too bad, the TO can kick out whoever he likes for whatever reason (hint: that's why he's the TO). If it's a problem, talk to the shop owner about it and get his take. If the shop owner is the TO, well too bad, it's his sandbox you want to come play in.

Polonius wrote:As for running Squats as Space Wolves... what exactly is he supposed to run them as?

Guardsmen, presumably.

Unless they're Exo-Armors.
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99MDeery wrote:The original one piece Black Orcs were on 25mm bases still.

Of course if he had based them on 20mm bases then it was an illegal unit to begin with and should have been removed from the tourny as fantasy is very strict on base sizes.

Exactly correct.

Tho the large WFB models (e.g. Giant) get a bit funky on base size. It's like GW has trouble when one size doens't fit all...

Several inappropriate posts have been removed from this thread. Let's keep it civil folks.


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Kanluwen wrote:We had our support pulled because the guy who came out on top, rather than using his newer Orc & Goblin army that he'd made the year before--used nothing but HeroQuest figures with the occasional metal hero.
GW informed us that because of the fact that the winning army was made using figures no longer considered their property--he either could retain the prizes and not have the event considered "official", or he could go back and replay the final game using his ACTUAL Orc & Goblin army and risk losing.

Sorry, but that's just madness. You can't wait until the event is over and then go back and tell a player that his army was actually illegal. The time for that sort of judgement call is before the first round.

Frankly, I think he was well within his rights to keep the prizes and not be branded negatively because of it. The fault there is either the TO's for allowing him to use the army in the first place, or GW's for insisting that OOP minis were not acceptable... assuming that such wasn't stated in their prize support package.

Kanluwen wrote:The point wasn't that he used Squats. The point was that he bragged about coming in second in a local tournament with a "Counts As" Squat army being run as Space Wolves.

I think you're blowing a throwaway comment up out of proportion there. He mentioned coming second, and that he was suprised by that as he's not a top-tier player. I didn't take that as bragging, or even the point of the comment. He was talking about the fact that he was allowed to use a Squat army in a tournament.