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Silly me, I bought a battle force and gave all the boyz in there shootas.... now I feel obligated to use them because I spent $$ on them.

I was thinking what is the optimal configuration for a shoota boy mob... is it?

(10 shootas, 1 Big Shoota, Nob w/PK & BP in a trukk)x2

mobile scoring unit that does not need to get out of the transport until it is time to capture objectives...

20 shootas...

good for screening and softening up the opposition,

17 shootas, 2 Big Shoota, Nob w/PK & BP

A reasonable configuration that can handle anything.

None of the above.

The best configuration for a shoota boy mob is this:

30x Shoota boys.
1x Upgraded to a nob, with a powerklaw - bosspole is optional.
3x Big Shootas - Optional.

If you're going to stick orks into transports, then they need to be slugga/choppa boys. Moving that vehicle more than 6" means that the boys inside aren't shooting, making shoota boys a waste and losing a close combat attack. Moving that vehicle 6" or less means that you are playing orks wrong.

Shoota boys go on foot. Slugga boys go in transports. If you want to play with shoota boys, you'll do fine - but max out their squad. Check out the "kan-wall" lists throughout the forums - you'll find a great use for those shoota boys, and its extremely competitive.

Whattaya mean, no love? Shootas are awesome. In fact, I'd say they're one of the better troop choices in the game; but then, I'd say the same about sluggas. Which you take just depends on what kind of army you're running; shootas for shooty armies, sluggas for assaulty armies.

However, NEVER take a 20-strong footslogger mob. If the Orks are footslogging, there are 30 or them, no exceptions. A 30-strong mob with a PK/bosspole Nob only costs 220, and the extra 10 boyz make you MUCH tougher, for much longer; it more than doubles the length of time you will be Fearless, and means you're chucking 20 more shots down the table. And since you've got 30 boyz, toss in 3 big shootas. The resultant unit is 235 points for 52 S4 shots at 18" and 9 S5 shots at 36". It will basically never fall back. It dishes out major pain in assault as well, as with 30 boyz you can make it across the board. 20 boyz can be shot to pieces; 30, not so much.

So to answer the question, the optimal configuration for shootas is;

26 shootas, 3 big shootas, PK Nob with bosspole

I love my Shoota Boyz. Not sure I'm in agreement with Berzerker though, 20 strong mobs have served me well. The whole fearless argument goes out the window when you take 8 casualties more than your opponent... and have to take eight more armor saves. You just lost 16 Orks! I find if I get the jump on the enema then the 20 Shoota Boyz last about two rounds of CC... just long enough for me to shoot the emerging threat on my next turn.

I always run at least two though, so they end up supporting each other and could be viewed as a 40 strong mob.

The Green Git wrote:I love my Shoota Boyz. Not sure I'm in agreement with Berzerker though, 20 strong mobs have served me well. The whole fearless argument goes out the window when you take 8 casualties more than your opponent... and have to take eight more armor saves. You just lost 16 Orks! I find if I get the jump on the enema then the 20 Shoota Boyz last about two rounds of CC... just long enough for me to shoot the emerging threat on my next turn.

I always run at least two though, so they end up supporting each other and could be viewed as a 40 strong mob.

14 or 15 more likely, although that's a quibble.

Shootas don't want to get into combat quite as much as Sluggas do. A shoota mob, particularly one with big shootas, does just fine laying down a wall of fire.

In addition, a combat in which your shootas take 8 more casualties than your opponent is a combat which should have been solved by MANZ, or Warbikes. . . or hell, Nob Bikers! Against MEQs and GEQs shootas should generally win a combat, because they have WS4 and two attacks each. On the charge you can add S4 to the list of advantages. If you're losing by that big a margin you're fighting Assault Termies, Ogryn or something equally scary, which shootas have no business assaulting.

I kinda have to agree there. If I were to take shoota boyz, I wouldnt really want them in the gak. Id take shoota boyz over my beloved slugga boyz any day in a defensive set up. Though Im not really sure who to agree with on the squad size, as I literally, have never run shoota boyz lol. Someday I might make some, but I seriously do not own shoota boy squads.


I could see them being great support choices though. If a squad takes it bad in CC, they would be the perfect choice, IMO, to lay down a crapton of lead whatever is still standing there. Maybe more so then lootas, simply because youd probably be shooting lootas at transports and drednoughts and such.

I disagree that shoota boys do not belong in the gak. That's the purpose.

Here's a bold statement, and I've made it before: A shoota boy is the best troop choice pointwise in the game, across all armies.


If you compare a mob of 30 shoota boys against a mob of 30 slugga boys who assault without the benefit of a Waaaugh!, the shoota boys come out on top. Here's why:

1. Lets make the assumption that a squad of 30 boys on the assault are going to strike last (I3 on the charge) and are going to take 10 casualties on the charge. I'm ignoring the Nob for rounding numbers.

2. 30 Shoota boys get 60 STR4 attacks before charging with their 18" Assault 2 shoota. WHen they assault into combat, they're going to lose 10 models, leaving 20 boys to get their attacks. 20 boys, 2 base attacks, +1 on the charge...60 attacks total. Shoota boys just dropped 120 attacks on the unit they assaulted.

3. 30 Slugga boys get 30 STR4 attacks before charging with their 12" pistol. When they assault into combat, they're going to lose 10 models, leaving 20 boys to make 4 attacks each: 80 attacks. They just dropped 110 attacks in total, 10 less attacks than the shoota boys.


Now if we inject realism...

Some slugga boys might not get to shoot their weapon due to range on what's being assaulted. Shoota boys have 6" more range - they won't suffer that problem.

*VERY* realistically...some of your mob might not get into close combat because there's simply not room for everyone to get into 2" of someone in base contact - shoota boys only lose 3 attacks from their 120; slugga boys lose 4 from their 110.

There's simply no reason to ever prefer slugga boys over shoota boys....UNLESS you're mechanized, and not shooting because you're fleeting / Waaaugh! the turn you assault.

I am asking this question because I bought a battleforce and made 20 shoota boyz in my excitement... without thinking of the consequences of my actions...

Now I feel obligated to use them... I have an unopened box of ten boyz I can use for another 10 shoota boyz.

After losing continuously with my horde army, I think it is time to introduce some battle wagons to my friends...

I thought about having 2 units of trukk boyz be armed with shootas but after Dash's response I think 1 unit that is footsloggin will not hurt me too bad, as it would be used for clean up and claiming objectives....

I have a question for you Shoota Boy extraordinaires...
Since I can't afford a kan wall right now I am going with grot screens for my shooty tide.

Are 2 squads of grots (19+runtherder) enough for 3x30 Shoota Boy squads?

Also I was considering making the first line of Shoota Boyz 'ard Boyz should the grots die before the line makes into assault range.

So the line deployment would ideally be like:
Grots
Grots
S 'Ard Boyz
S Boyz

I guess I have a ton of converting to do :[ All I have right now are AOBR Boyz lol

Razzle wrote:I have a question for you Shoota Boy extraordinaires...
Since I can't afford a kan wall right now I am going with grot screens for my shooty tide.

Are 2 squads of grots (19+runtherder) enough for 3x30 Shoota Boy squads?

Also I was considering making the first line of Shoota Boyz 'ard Boyz should the grots die before the line makes into assault range.

So the line deployment would ideally be like:
Grots
Grots
S 'Ard Boyz
S Boyz

I guess I have a ton of converting to do :[ All I have right now are AOBR Boyz lol

In your shoes, I would use a single unit of gretchin to conserve points. I would make them 29+2 Runt herders instead of 19+1. 107 points for a 31 model unit that is also a troop choice that also provides a 4+ for your entire army is a worthy endeavor. Remember, these guys are probably going to die. If they don't, you can camp them on an objective, go to ground for the rest of the game, and give your opponent the finger. But if they DO die, which is more likely..I don't see the sense in wasting two troop choices in a cover save.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Razzle wrote:I have a question for you Shoota Boy extraordinaires...
Since I can't afford a kan wall right now I am going with grot screens for my shooty tide.

Are 2 squads of grots (19+runtherder) enough for 3x30 Shoota Boy squads?

Also I was considering making the first line of Shoota Boyz 'ard Boyz should the grots die before the line makes into assault range.

So the line deployment would ideally be like:
Grots
Grots
S 'Ard Boyz
S Boyz

I guess I have a ton of converting to do :[ All I have right now are AOBR Boyz lol

In your shoes, I would use a single unit of gretchin to conserve points. I would make them 29+2 Runt herders instead of 19+1. 107 points for a 31 model unit that is also a troop choice that also provides a 4+ for your entire army is a worthy endeavor. Remember, these guys are probably going to die. If they don't, you can camp them on an objective, go to ground for the rest of the game, and give your opponent the finger. But if they DO die, which is more likely..I don't see the sense in wasting two troop choices in a cover save.

Makes sense, thanks. It'll make sorting them out easier too anyway.

You'll need one Runtherd for every 1-10 Grotz you want in your Grot Mobz. So that would be 29 Grots and 3 Runtherdz.

No, that would be 29 Grotz and 2 Runtherdz.

Unless you want to allow 21 Boyz with 3 Bigshootas as well.

While one case is "must" and the other "may" the quantifiers are still the same; "for every 10..."

Indeed, and the modality, the "must" and "may", changes how the quantifier is understood significantly.

(B) You must take a Runtherd for every 10 Grotz that you field.

(G) You may take a Big Shoota for every 10 Boyz that you field.

That means:

(B) If you may take one Big Shoota for every ten Boyz, then you must take ten Boyz to add one Big Shoota.

Ten Boyz + Big Shoota = Ten models.

(G) If you must take one Runtherd for every ten Grotz, then you must take one Runtherd to add a group of ten Grotz. That includes fractions thereof.

Ten Grotz + Runtherd = Eleven models.

In the case of Boyz we are told that ten Boyz is a necessary condition the unit must meet to upgrade a Slugga or Shoota to a Big Shoota.

In the case of the Grotz we are told that a Runtherd is a necessary condition for having up to ten Grotz.

English; it means something.

Dashofpepper wrote:None of the above.

The best configuration for a shoota boy mob is this:

30x Shoota boys.
1x Upgraded to a nob, with a powerklaw - bosspole is optional.
3x Big Shootas - Optional.

If you're going to stick orks into transports, then they need to be slugga/choppa boys. Moving that vehicle more than 6" means that the boys inside aren't shooting, making shoota boys a waste and losing a close combat attack. Moving that vehicle 6" or less means that you are playing orks wrong.

Shoota boys go on foot. Slugga boys go in transports. If you want to play with shoota boys, you'll do fine - but max out their squad. Check out the "kan-wall" lists throughout the forums - you'll find a great use for those shoota boys, and its extremely competitive.

Isn't combat speed =6", or 12" in a fast vehicle, and cruising speed is 12", or 18" in a fast vehicle?
Ork trucks moving at 12" are fast vehicles, and thus still moving at combat speed so the passengers can still shoot.
If a battle wagon has a mech on board giving other units the 4+ cover save it would make sense for some trucks to limit their movement speed to the battle wagon's 12"
Those truks could benefit from shootas.

Dashofpepper wrote:I disagree that shoota boys do not belong in the gak. That's the purpose.

Here's a bold statement, and I've made it before: A shoota boy is the best troop choice pointwise in the game, across all armies.


If you compare a mob of 30 shoota boys against a mob of 30 slugga boys who assault without the benefit of a Waaaugh!, the shoota boys come out on top. Here's why:

1. Lets make the assumption that a squad of 30 boys on the assault are going to strike last (I3 on the charge) and are going to take 10 casualties on the charge. I'm ignoring the Nob for rounding numbers.

2. 30 Shoota boys get 60 STR4 attacks before charging with their 18" Assault 2 shoota. WHen they assault into combat, they're going to lose 10 models, leaving 20 boys to get their attacks. 20 boys, 2 base attacks, +1 on the charge...60 attacks total. Shoota boys just dropped 120 attacks on the unit they assaulted.

3. 30 Slugga boys get 30 STR4 attacks before charging with their 12" pistol. When they assault into combat, they're going to lose 10 models, leaving 20 boys to make 4 attacks each: 80 attacks. They just dropped 110 attacks in total, 10 less attacks than the shoota boys.


Now if we inject realism...

Some slugga boys might not get to shoot their weapon due to range on what's being assaulted. Shoota boys have 6" more range - they won't suffer that problem.

*VERY* realistically...some of your mob might not get into close combat because there's simply not room for everyone to get into 2" of someone in base contact - shoota boys only lose 3 attacks from their 120; slugga boys lose 4 from their 110.

There's simply no reason to ever prefer slugga boys over shoota boys....UNLESS you're mechanized, and not shooting because you're fleeting / Waaaugh! the turn you assault.

I take issue both with your assumptions and your conclusion.

First off, you are not considering the Waagh, which benefits Sluggas, but not Shootas. Shootas must sacrifice 60 of their attacks in order to use the Waagh, while Sluggas sacrifice only 30. A Waagh-ing Slugga Boy squad has a 7-12" charge range at which it deals 120 attacks; a Shoota Boy squad doing the same thing deals only 90, a significant decrease in capability. If the Shootas wish to take advantage of their guns before charging, they must come closer, meaning that more often than not they won't get the charge, they'll receive it. This is a very bad thing, for Orks.

Secondly, you are making two other assumptions; that the Orks will go last, and that they will take 10 casualties before striking back. In other words, you are assuming that the squad is charging a unit of Assault Terminators or something equally deadly, which would be excessively foolish.

Orks on the charge will go first against some armies (other Orks, Necrons) even with some (Tyranids, Tau, IG/Witch Hunters) and after a few (SM/Gray Knights, Eldar, DE). The fairest assumption for general use is thus that they strike at even initiative.

As to losses, if a unit can kill 10 WS4 T4 models at Initiative steps 4 and up, that is a unit the Orks should have left for the Nobz, Lootas and other, more powerful boyz to deal with. In general, that number of kills indicates that the equivalent of 40 MEQ attacks (WS 4 S4) have been launched. That's far beyond the capacity of most MEQ units. Some Eldar units could do it, as could, perhaps, Khorne Berzerkers and Assault Termies; but again, these are not the units that footslogger Orks should be assaulting, and they cost far more points than the Orks do. If we take a unit of roughly equivalent points cost - for the sake of argument, a 10-man squad of Assault Marines - the Orks suffer far fewer casualties. 20 attacks = 10 hits = 5 wounds = 5 dead Orks; let's take that as a good starting point.

Fewer casualties tips the math even more in favor of Sluggas. Run the numbers against that Assault Squad; 25 Sluggas attacking = 100 attacks, 50 hits, 25 wounds, 8.3 dead Marines in exchange for those 5 dead Orks. If that squad is Shootas, by contrast, you get 75 attacks = 37.5 hits = 18.75 wounds = 6.25 dead Marines. There's a difference there.

The difference is even greater fighting GEQs. If Sluggas charge in against a 30-strong Guardsman blob, they strike at even Initiative. 120 attacks = 60 hits = 40 wounds = 26.7 dead Guardsmen. With Shootas, 9 attacks = 45 hits = 30 wounds = 20 dead Guardsmen. Once again; there is a significant difference in capability.

In many if not most cases, I don't want to shoot before I assault, I want to Waagh and get into combat as soon as is possible. My footsloggers run, every turn, which means two things; first, I am often locked on turn 2, and second, shootas would be useless. There are many situations in which that extra close combat attack is more valuable than the extra shots.

Theoryhammer is all fine and dandy, but the point remains that the shoota boy and slugga boy are both excellent, but require different usage to maximize their effectiveness. For example, against units with high Initiative, shoota boyz can be great, as 60 dice of S4 can whittle them down a bit before the charge, meaning less casualties when you charge and more boyz attacks coming home.

The point is, use the type (slugga or shoota) that works with what your overall army is trying to accomplish. If your army is built around melee and the WAAAAGH, then it's pointless to have shoota boyz, but you want to have a versatile shooting-capable army, slugga boyz are counter-productive to your army.

I was using 10 Shootas, 1 big shoota, and a nob with a powerklaw all in a trukk to outrun and wittle down slower models that would devour slugga boyz in HTH...

schadenfreude wrote:Isn't combat speed =6", or 12" in a fast vehicle, and cruising speed is 12", or 18" in a fast vehicle?
Ork trucks moving at 12" are fast vehicles, and thus still moving at combat speed so the passengers can still shoot.
If a battle wagon has a mech on board giving other units the 4+ cover save it would make sense for some trucks to limit their movement speed to the battle wagon's 12"
Those truks could benefit from shootas.

No. p.70 outlines how it works. Fast simply allows you to move flat out (up to 12-18"). It does not change that combat is up to 6" and crusing is 12". What is does change is how many weapons you can fire for moving those speeds: fire all weapons at combat speed and a single weapon at cruising speed.

hmmm.... That puts a downer on things like plans... seems like shootas in trukks will have 2 speeds, 6" and 18"...

Here's a couple other points in favor of shootas that haven't been considered (on foot):

1. Threat range on a slugga boy is 12" + 1d6" once per game. Threat range on a shoota boy is 24" which is double most of the time. This has some nice effects:
-Shoota boyz typically start killing on turn 2 and hit peak effectiveness turn 3. Sluggaz start killing turn 3 and hit peak turn 4 (unless your enemy is kind enough to come to you.)
-When has anyone ever gotten 120 attacks from a slugga mob? Unless your opponent has no blasts or templates and the stars align and your opponent is pants-on-head slowed, your mob is going to be spread out and only the first few ranks are going to get stuck in. Shootas OTOH can have their rear ranks contribute their shots when the mob charges the enemy, even if they don't get within range to attack.
-It forces your opponent to use different tactics. For example, space marines can fire once and rapid fire once into an approaching slugga mob before being attacked. However, they get at most one round of shooting before they start taking significant casualties from shootas. When they're on the move, they get no shooting before they start being shot to pieces. My SM friends hate that.

2. Shootas have the flexibility to deal with different types of threats.
-Charging grey hunters, khorne berzerkers, and the like can be a losing proposition for slugga boyz (depending how many you've lost after being shot up for 3 or 4 rounds.) Shooting them first or exclusively really nullifies those issues with much fewer losses.
-When I play mechanized armies, I play my shootas exactly as if they were sluggas without loss of efficiency. Shootas are actually much better for shooting into the rear arcs of tanks that have moved 12" too, where sluggas are hitting on 6s and only from point blank range.

3. Shootas still win at close combat. There are few units that will beat a shoota mob but not a slugga mob in assault, that extra attack makes little real difference, especially in light of what you're giving up as outlined above. Against IG, tau, marines, sisters, etc. etc., a shoota mob can fight them in assault and leave their enemy wiped out.

Pepper - Yes using that scenario comparing the shoota boy to the slugga boy, yes they would come out on top. But thats saying that the shoota boyz are within assault range. In my experience, most of the time, your just outside of assault range, meaning you would have to RUN to get there.

NOW if the shoota boyz had to run in that same scenario, they would give up shooting 60 times do to run in the shooting phase. Then assaulting 30 shoota boyz would get 90 attacks (2 base +1 for assaulting)
Where as the slugga boyz, same situation, would get 120 attacks (2 base +1 for 2ccw +1 for assaulting) Meaning they would come out WAY ahead.

This is why I personally think the slugga boy is the best troop in the game lol. Obviously its a situational thing, if you are close enough to shoot and assault, yes the shoota boy is better, but if your not, the slugga boy out shines the shoota boy

Also, remember that slugga boys can shoot their sluggas on the way into the assault.
Normally I get another 12 or so slugga shots when doing that.

Well yes but my example was if you had to run to get into assault range.

If you can shoot, then assault, Pepper is right the shoota boyz get more attacks normally (gotta remember that AWESOME BS2 lol)
And more attacks usually means better (though if the dice gods hate you, it wont matter)

Shoota boyz are the only kind of boyz.

The only time I can conceive of using sluggas is for 12 man trukk boy mobs, and those are crap. 20 man shoota boyz I feel are the perfect number both in boyz and squad footprint. 30 get unwieldly to move around, but are very good still. YMMV.

Finally the shootas give you the ability to threaten people in multiple ways. And even with the BS of 2 20 or 30 shootas will hurt an infantry unit through firepower.

I keep hearing people think that BS 2 is bad. Well, they would be right, it is pretty low.
Lets look at the grand picture though before we start slamming that BS2.

Shoota boys have an effective range of 24". Normally not all 30 will be in 18", so a more realistic estimate is 20 will be in range. You should also have 3 big shootas in the squad as well, as they are a great upgrade for 15 points. This gives the following shots
* 40 shots for STR 4
* 9 shots at STR 5
Sure, only 1/3 of them will hit, but your throwing down nearly 50 dice, so you can expect to hit with 16-17 of them.
It would take 20 marines to hit with that many shots outside rapid fire range. The shootas ability to move and shoot 18" is a huge advantage too.

So how much of a disadvantage is that BS of a 2? Well, that depends if you feel lucky. As the number of dice you roll grows larger, the dice will have more average results with less variance. In other words, the chances of you missing every shot from 3 MM Attack Bikes are greater than you missing every shot from that squad illustrated above. As a result, the larger dice pool and BS of 2 means that your less prone to bad luck streaks!

Dashofpepper wrote:I disagree that shoota boys do not belong in the gak. That's the purpose.

Here's a bold statement, and I've made it before: A shoota boy is the best troop choice pointwise in the game, across all armies.


If you compare a mob of 30 shoota boys against a mob of 30 slugga boys who assault without the benefit of a Waaaugh!, the shoota boys come out on top. Here's why:

1. Lets make the assumption that a squad of 30 boys on the assault are going to strike last (I3 on the charge) and are going to take 10 casualties on the charge. I'm ignoring the Nob for rounding numbers.

2. 30 Shoota boys get 60 STR4 attacks before charging with their 18" Assault 2 shoota. WHen they assault into combat, they're going to lose 10 models, leaving 20 boys to get their attacks. 20 boys, 2 base attacks, +1 on the charge...60 attacks total. Shoota boys just dropped 120 attacks on the unit they assaulted.

3. 30 Slugga boys get 30 STR4 attacks before charging with their 12" pistol. When they assault into combat, they're going to lose 10 models, leaving 20 boys to make 4 attacks each: 80 attacks. They just dropped 110 attacks in total, 10 less attacks than the shoota boys.


Now if we inject realism...

Some slugga boys might not get to shoot their weapon due to range on what's being assaulted. Shoota boys have 6" more range - they won't suffer that problem.

*VERY* realistically...some of your mob might not get into close combat because there's simply not room for everyone to get into 2" of someone in base contact - shoota boys only lose 3 attacks from their 120; slugga boys lose 4 from their 110.

There's simply no reason to ever prefer slugga boys over shoota boys....UNLESS you're mechanized, and not shooting because you're fleeting / Waaaugh! the turn you assault.

There's a couple holes in your logic, but overall its pretty good. I would definately consider the slugga boys for a couple units.

The only holes are: your slugga boys will get there faster. a turn faster most likely. So you will end up with more boyz there in the long run in combat then with shootaboyz.

It's moreso the case that BS2 is unreliable, rather than bad. But dice are unreliable, and reliability only goes so far as the various possibilities that are reliable.

For example, which is more reliable:

36 Shots at BS2 or 18 Shots at BS4?

Ideally you'll get 12 hits for each. But the thing is that's just on average, where the average would only exist over a sample of thousands of rolls. In the few hundred rolls happening in a game of 40k you can visit both ends of the bell curve and be home before lunch.

The volume of fire, that is the volume of potential hits, is just as important as the reliability of fire - perhaps even more so considering 40k uses dice and not probability calculations to determine hits.

36 Shots at BS2 is just as reliable as 18 Shots at BS4, and it has twice the potential.

While you are getting twice the potential, I'm sure the probability distribution will show that its still even - the orks are more likely to get lower number of successes as well. The odds are even, just that the swing is greater with orks.

That's just it, the odds aren't even, and they aren't evened by the increase in volume. Rolling twice as many dice doesn't magically chance BS2 to BS4 while halving the number of potential results.

Put another way, the odds become irrelevant once an event has happened: if the Orks hit with all 36 shots, then the fact that the probability is even becomes moot.