Nurglitch wrote:36 Shots at BS2 is just as reliable as 18 Shots at BS4, and it has twice the potential.

Nurglitch wrote:The increase in reliable from a sample of 18 to a sample of 36 is statistically insignificant.

usernamesareannoying wrote:god, another thread turned mat lesson.
when did this become matha matha?

Nurglitch wrote:Indeed, and the modality, the "must" and "may", changes how the quantifier is understood significantly.

(B) You must take a Runtherd for every 10 Grotz that you field.

(G) You may take a Big Shoota for every 10 Boyz that you field.

That means:

(B) If you may take one Big Shoota for every ten Boyz, then you must take ten Boyz to add one Big Shoota.

Ten Boyz + Big Shoota = Ten models.

(G) If you must take one Runtherd for every ten Grotz, then you must take one Runtherd to add a group of ten Grotz. That includes fractions thereof.

Ten Grotz + Runtherd = Eleven models.

In the case of Boyz we are told that ten Boyz is a necessary condition the unit must meet to upgrade a Slugga or Shoota to a Big Shoota.

In the case of the Grotz we are told that a Runtherd is a necessary condition for having up to ten Grotz.

English; it means something.

Dracos wrote:Yeah guys, stop trying to hammer out the actual chances and just go off randomly generated guestimations.

Whoever thought a tactics forum would contain exact information needed to determine proper.... tactics.

Culler wrote:
-When has anyone ever gotten 120 attacks from a slugga mob? Unless your opponent has no blasts or templates and the stars align and your opponent is pants-on-head slowed, your mob is going to be spread out and only the first few ranks are going to get stuck in. Shootas OTOH can have their rear ranks contribute their shots when the mob charges the enemy, even if they don't get within range to attack.

KingCracker wrote:
NOW if the shoota boyz had to run in that same scenario, they would give up shooting 60 times do to run in the shooting phase. Then assaulting 30 shoota boyz would get 90 attacks (2 base +1 for assaulting)
Where as the slugga boyz, same situation, would get 120 attacks (2 base +1 for 2ccw +1 for assaulting) Meaning they would come out WAY ahead.

Culler wrote:

I feel like I'm being ignored here in favor of theoryhammering unrealistic situations.

Culler wrote:Here's a couple other points in favor of shootas that haven't been considered (on foot):

1. Threat range on a slugga boy is 12" + 1d6" once per game. Threat range on a shoota boy is 24" which is double most of the time. This has some nice effects:
-Shoota boyz typically start killing on turn 2 and hit peak effectiveness turn 3. Sluggaz start killing turn 3 and hit peak turn 4 (unless your enemy is kind enough to come to you.)
-When has anyone ever gotten 120 attacks from a slugga mob? Unless your opponent has no blasts or templates and the stars align and your opponent is pants-on-head slowed, your mob is going to be spread out and only the first few ranks are going to get stuck in. Shootas OTOH can have their rear ranks contribute their shots when the mob charges the enemy, even if they don't get within range to attack.
-It forces your opponent to use different tactics. For example, space marines can fire once and rapid fire once into an approaching slugga mob before being attacked. However, they get at most one round of shooting before they start taking significant casualties from shootas. When they're on the move, they get no shooting before they start being shot to pieces. My SM friends hate that.

2. Shootas have the flexibility to deal with different types of threats.
-Charging grey hunters, khorne berzerkers, and the like can be a losing proposition for slugga boyz (depending how many you've lost after being shot up for 3 or 4 rounds.) Shooting them first or exclusively really nullifies those issues with much fewer losses.
-When I play mechanized armies, I play my shootas exactly as if they were sluggas without loss of efficiency. Shootas are actually much better for shooting into the rear arcs of tanks that have moved 12" too, where sluggas are hitting on 6s and only from point blank range.

3. Shootas still win at close combat. There are few units that will beat a shoota mob but not a slugga mob in assault, that extra attack makes little real difference, especially in light of what you're giving up as outlined above. Against IG, tau, marines, sisters, etc. etc., a shoota mob can fight them in assault and leave their enemy wiped out.