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When do you use them, How do you use them?

I can't really find a perfect situation for them. Where have you all seen them used successfully?

Frankly, I don't use them either.

It appears that a Razorback-heavy list is the way to go.

Razorbacks are always getting toasted, they are the equivalent of the WW2 Allies Sherman Tank or "Tommy Cooker". RAZORBACKS are useful to bulkout a SM armoured force and protect PREDS or LANDRAIDERS. One hit and its generally only fit for Scrap Heap Challenge. I simply cannot be bothered to field them and PREDATORS are not a huge improvement.

I find razorbacks useful if you're doing combat squads all the time. They add the extra firepower for partly what you've lost from a full squad of bolters. They can come in useful, but they're just as weak as rhinos at the end of the day.

Take a couple with TL assault cannons, two tac squads, a bike squad with captain, and a land speeder. Makes a mean 1000 point backwaller list...

I use them as back up for my Land Raiders. With bigger things to shoot at, people don't pay attention to my Razorbacks, and if I get two they are like a predator but more mobile, and more rugged. Put Assault Cannons on them and they can thin out hoards. They are weak though, so it is important to always make sure that they other guy has something juicier to shoot at. Two Razorbacks in a Delta Formation with a Land Raider usually does it. And all that concentrated fire power can take out enemy vehicles easily.

Just my ideas. Decent success with them. Just don't base a list around them. But they can fluff out a list if you have points to spend.

I typically run four with lascannons and twin-plasma guns. With infantry units deployed in cover and at least two Predator variants floating around, plus attack bikes, I find most opponents don't really have the time to dedicate to killing Razorbacks from the get go. I usually run 10-man squads and combat squad, though I'm beginning to think about going with 5 man squads. I like the extra firepower and scoring units in objective missions alot. but it'd be nice to mech up fully in DoW and KP missions.

Yeah, you need at least four razorbacks--as many as six is not unknown--plus pred and dreads and speeders in a fully mechanized force to see how they're really effective.

If you only have one or two, and few or no other vehicles, most anybody's antitank guns are enough to trash them.

I use 2 TL AssC razorbacks in my 2k armoured list which also includes 2 rhinos, LRC, 2 MM/HF speeders, 2 Typhoon speeders, and 2 dreads.

They are used as scoring support for the LRC, Dreads, and MM/HF speeders as they advance.

I use them with Longfang units.
6 long fangs with 5 missile launchers, and an attatched wolf guard in TDA with a cyclone, with Logan Grimnar, with a HB razorback to provide cover.

7 Tank hunting krak missiles untill they get relatively close, then its 7 Relentless missiles, then they get really close, then its logan grimnar and a wolf guard with prefered enemy eating units that were softened up from lots of missile shots.

This way I can decide before the battle if its worth it to field logan+WG with the long fangs, or if the long fangs should hide inside the razorback and jump out in a better position.

This are the ways I think of using Razorbacks.

Summary
You are swapping out the special+heavy weapon in your squad for a heavy weapon in your transport. This can be good if your trying to saturate armor on the board.


Cost of RB Squads
While you could still get a 10 man squad, combat squad them, and throw 5 of them in a razorback, your paying for 5 models sitting out in the open with one heavy weapon. This is not a good use of points or troop choices. Instead, look at these two configurations.
5 marines, w/combi-melta + RB w/ TL HB : 140pts
5 marines, w/combi-melta + RB w/ TL AC : 165pts

Now compare to a 10 man squad in a rhino. As you can see, in addition to moving your heavy weapon to a vehicle, they are also cheaper as well allowing you to field more units.
10 marines, 2/combi-melta, melta gun and HB : 220


Use of RB Squads
Razorbacks, like Rhinos are not designed for solo use. They are supporting vehicles designed to compliment Predators and Land Raiders.
One LR can give cover to 2 RBs, while still allowing them to fire. If your RBs have TL heavy flamers, you can use them to transport your troops to objectives this way, and is a great compliment to the terminator LR. Run this up the side of the board you wish to use to claim objectives on.
For your rear line, you could use 2 long range RBs in combination with the following : 3 dakka preds, 3 TL AC dreadnoughts. This gives a good fire support to your offensive strike described earlier.

Together, your looking at 8 vehicles in your rear line, and 3 moving forward on the offensive. The trick is to saturate the board in AV.

Razorbacks work well in Blood Angel and Dark Angel squads where you can field five-man squads with a special weapon. They're also good transports for Command Squads.

Perfect situation:

5 - man devastator squad.
1 HQ.

5 Man Vets
1 HQ.
no more need be said.

Except for discussion about tactics, sure...

If you haven;t actually started your army yet, or can find some other way too, Space Wolves are even better to combine with Razorbacks. Even with 5 guys, Grey Hunters still get a special weapon, plus back that up with the heavy weapon of the Razorback.

Tactically, the best way to utilize them is to rush your embarked unit to wherever you want them to fight, pile them out, and then keep your Razorback as close as possible (although putting it behind cover helps) so that it can provide fire support.

My brother uses razorbacks to good effect. They are fairly cheap and he pretty much always takes heavy bolters on them. Its a pretty good fire platform against weaker armor save units. Sure they get toasted easily, but usually they do damage before my boyz scrap them

I'd put a dev squad in there if i was playing a horde army- 4 ML's can't go wrong with a TL HB supporting them. Helps for DoW deployment too.

Pretty much all i would use it for though tbh =\ but scoring units inside them would be kind of cool, but personally would much rather 10 Tac's in a rhino on an objective than 5 tac's in a Razorback

Captain Solon wrote:Perfect situation:

5 - man devastator squad.
1 HQ.

5 Man Vets
1 HQ.
no more need be said.

First off, personally I don't think the devestators are a good point/value unit.
Secondly, why would you wan't a heavy weapon squad, that isnt scoring, locked in a transport without firing points?

Scenario:

Turn 1
You deploy your razorback, move 6" forward (not more as then even the turret on the razorback is useless)

Turn 2
You move yet forward... 6" - 12 "

Turn 3
Probably still moving forward (6"-12") as you've only moved 12"- 18" so far.

Turn 4
You disembark, can't shoot heavy weapons

Turn 5
OH YEAH WE GET TO FIRE

Turn 6
Random turns means this turn might not be played. ;P

Really really not a good tactic IMO.

Having sternguard veterans in it is better though, with loads of combi weapons and just other weapons that you can fire after disembarking.


Reason I use razorbacks is that I like how they look and feel. I just have a thing for transports with weapons But the increased cap on the rhino is great...


Edit:

Jihallah wrote:I'd put a dev squad in there if i was playing a horde army- 4 ML's can't go wrong with a TL HB supporting them. Helps for DoW deployment too.

Yes, but I'd rather have my dev squad fire their weapons. Embarking/Disembarking just removes a lot of the heavy weapons shooting during a game.

I think the notion behind pairing the Devastators with the Razorback isn't that they hang around inside of it, but that the Razorback acts to define lines of sight so that they can parse their enemy into easily demolished chuncks, while the Razorback itself adds to their firepower. This was nastier back in 4th edition with the casualty rules back then, but it still works to protect the Devastators.

Yes but thats basically a 40p tl - heavy bolter. Sure it adds the option to drive away if things gets sour, or block part of the squad for a cover save or just block LOS altogether.

I'd rather get a t-l lascannon razorback with a scoring combat squad inside it, camped on an objective shooting potshots at incoming transports.

But it all depends on how you like to play of course.

+1 for the TL Las

Jihallah wrote: but personally would much rather 10 Tac's in a rhino on an objective than 5 tac's in a Razorback

Well, yea. I would rather have a 210 unit sitting on an objective over a 140 point unit.

A better question would be -- would you rather have 2 rhinos full of marines sitting on an objective vs. 3 razorbacks sitting on them?
Like many things in life, there are benefits to both solutions.

The Razorback Option
-Quick and Dirty and cheep: One Razorback with no upgrades.
-Quick, Dirty and not so cheep: Rhino with all the upgrades including Twin Linked Las-Cannon.
-GEQ Hunting: Twin-Linked Heavy-Bolter, Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer, or Twin-Linked Assault Cannon and the Storm Bolter.
-MEQ Hunting: Twin-Linked, Assault Cannon or the Las-Cannon with the Twin-Linked Plasma-Gun.
-Tank Hunting: Twin-Linked Las Cannon or the Las-Cannon with the Twin-Linked Plasma-Gun.

How do you use [abuse] them?
-If you want a Armored Company grab one for each squad that can have one. Remember the Squad does not have to fit in them to buy them, just to mount up.

This is from my SW Synergy thread
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/266924.page

I think it depends on the strategy you're using to get there. Either way you have six units, but the first way you're only using two Troops slots, whereas you'll need three for what labmouse42 is proposing.

In the case of the Razorbacks you'll have three heavy weapons, same as the two Tactical squads, but you won't have the special weapons, assuming equal points and Codex Space Marines rather than Codex Dark Angels.

I think I'd prefer the Rhinos if I was planning on holding back for the first two turns and then scooting for the objectives, and the Razorbacks if I was planning on advancing with integral support for the first two turns.

SuperioR wrote:Yes but thats basically a 40p tl - heavy bolter. Sure it adds the option to drive away if things gets sour, or block part of the squad for a cover save or just block LOS altogether.

I'd rather get a t-l lascannon razorback with a scoring combat squad inside it, camped on an objective shooting potshots at incoming transports.

But it all depends on how you like to play of course.

There are many ways to skin the cat, and we should play with what we think is fun.
Here is why I do not recommend the combat squad solution.
* 10 man SM Tac squad with ML + Meltagun + Combi-Melta costs 185 before the transport.
* Add another 75 for the TL LC razorback, and your paying 260 for that unit.
* It leaves 5 marines with a LD of 8 sitting by themselves. Sure they can have a ML, but one bad morale check and they can run off the table.

If you don't want the TL HB, I would recommend the TL AC. AC's actually have a higher chance of destroying tanks than a LC does. If you do some searches on the forum, you will find the mathhammer. I know, that it defies logic, but hey this is a future fantasy game.

labmouse42 wrote:

SuperioR wrote:Yes but thats basically a 40p tl - heavy bolter. Sure it adds the option to drive away if things gets sour, or block part of the squad for a cover save or just block LOS altogether.

I'd rather get a t-l lascannon razorback with a scoring combat squad inside it, camped on an objective shooting potshots at incoming transports.

But it all depends on how you like to play of course.

There are many ways to skin the cat, and we should play with what we think is fun.
Here is why I do not recommend the combat squad solution.
* 10 man SM Tac squad with ML + Meltagun + Combi-Melta costs 185 before the transport.
* Add another 75 for the TL LC razorback, and your paying 260 for that unit.
* It leaves 5 marines with a LD of 8 sitting by themselves. Sure they can have a ML, but one bad morale check and they can run off the table.

If you don't want the TL HB, I would recommend the TL AC. AC's actually have a higher chance of destroying tanks than a LC does. If you do some searches on the forum, you will find the mathhammer. I know, that it defies logic, but hey this is a future fantasy game.

The other point on the combat squads is that is also lets you double your scoring units. Two missile launchers/lascannons hanging on a rear objective capable of shooting at two different targets and two Razorbacks moving forward in tandem with two meltas/flamers/plasmas inside is a much greater threat, hence the greater points cost. I've also found I lose alot of firepower when I go down to five man squads. It means getting rid of 2 lascannons, 2 missile launchers and 4 plasma rifles that I subsequently have to replace in my list. That gets a little tough when you've already filled 3 FA and 3 Heavy slots in your standard lists.

labmouse42:

An interesting point about the twin-linked Assault Cannons is that they're only more likely to destroy tanks within 24". Outside of that short range than Lascannons are considerably more likely.

Nurglitch wrote:labmouse42:

An interesting point about the twin-linked Assault Cannons is that they're only more likely to destroy tanks within 24". Outside of that short range than Lascannons are considerably more likely.

Yep, and if you're planning on sitting on a home objective it might be nice to have the extra range of the lascannon. Depending on the army you're playing, destroying their transports when they are within 24" might be too late.

Then again its all situational and I agree the t-l assault cannon option is a good choice. But in my own opinion, I'd rather have ACs when I plan to move forward and LCs when I plan to stay back.

There's more than that. There's also the concept of "effective range" which is range added to movement. A Lascannon-armed vehicle can move 6" away from a vehicle 25" away, keeping it within its own range but beyond its target range.

Players have more experience with this when it comes to charging, and those players who can exploit those magic distances of 13", 19", and 25" can often destroy a less astute player without ever giving the game away.

But the fact is that something like a Land Speeder hanging around on the side of the board can cross that 24" threshold first, get the first shot in, and destroy the Razorback before it can use its expensive twin-linked Assault Cannons.

If, like me, you tend to play on 4'x6' boards, you'll realize that 24" range doesn't give you much coverage if your opponent either doesn't come to you, or let you go to him.

i have 4 of them And two rhinos and 2 land raiders. So i use my 4 razor backs to piss off my enemy while the 4 transports deliver cargo on objectives and use the razorbacks as human shields. XD.

then 2 predators and a vindicator to back up the razor backs.

This always kills an heavy infantry army or a heavy vechile army which is too common now.