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Nurglitch wrote:labmouse42:

An interesting point about the twin-linked Assault Cannons is that they're only more likely to destroy tanks within 24". Outside of that short range than Lascannons are considerably more likely.

I was responding to the term 'incoming transports', which by definition means they are moving within 24".
As you mentioned the movement, you also know that an AC has an effective 30" range on a vehicle. After the RB has popped the incoming transport, it can move backwards

Of course, the debate of how useful a 24" range is would be an entirely different discussion.

Not really, as it affects the utility and strategic uses of the Razorback. I'm pretty sure they just added that option because a plastic twin-linked turret was going to become available via the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer kit.

In my SW tankstorm it adds together with a Pred Destructor the so much needed long range AT-Firepower.
While 1x LRR, 2x Vindicators and a Rhino with 8 angry grey hunters with melta/combi-melta rush toward the enemy they kill of the enemy predators and AT-tanks (I wonder why so many players concentrate their AT on vehicles?). My opponent is busy enough trying to stop my main assault, he CAN'T afford to fire on my support. The tl-las is a great option for this job.
And not to forget, in the Razor sits a scoring unit of GHs .

Wow everyone, thanks a lot for all your imput. Lots of good reading over the course of 1 night haha

In the end I think i'm going to go with the way of Drop pods and sternguard themed list rather than a mechanized list as it appears you'll need in order to use razorbacks to their full extent.

Sternguard Rock especially with Storm Bolters hence 5pts rather than 3pts though you cannot fire special Ammo. Whatever you do don't put them in a Rhino or RB the Papier Mache Armour just causes them to have problems fighting your way out of slagged vehicle is never fun...

Sternguard with storm bolter come to 30 points per model. If you are going to do that, why not just buy tactical terminators. 10 more points per model gets you the 2+/5+ and a powerfist.

Giving sternguard options that makes it impossible to use special ammo is a strategical blunder.

The Terminators won't fit in a Razorback, now will they?

Heh good point. I guess if you are determined to put storm bolters in a razorback (it has no fire points so the rational is questionable) then sternguard are a way to do it.

Bad plan given the opportunity cost, but it is a plan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, and if you are determined to have storm bolters in a razorback, a command squad is probably a better way to do it.

I don't think the opportunity cost is that bad, particularly given what you can gain. You drive up 12", have the Sternguard pile out the back of the Razorback and take up firing positions in cover behind it, and then shoot at targets much further away than would be possible for Rapid Fire weapons. It's like doubling your Rapid Fire range while using the Razorback for cover.

Nurglitch wrote:
I don't think the opportunity cost is that bad, particularly given what you can gain. You drive up 12", have the Sternguard pile out the back of the Razorback and take up firing positions in cover behind it, and then shoot at targets much further away than would be possible for Rapid Fire weapons. It's like doubling your Rapid Fire range while using the Razorback for cover.

Its not a bad idea the storm bolters do throw down a few more shots outside of 12 inch range. At the same time Sternguard with bolters can shoot 30" with Kraken rounds and those have AP4.

I tend to have decent luck with my Razorback. It almost always goes boom but it provides target saturation for my predators as well as keeping fire off of my 2nd tactical squad's Rhino.

Cheers
~Volkan

Volkan:

All Special Issue Ammunition is Rapid Fire. That means if the Sternguard moved, then the range of their Kraken Bolts will be 12". So if the Sternguard disembarked from the rear hatch, they'll either fall short range-wise or lose the cover from the Razorback. In addition the Stormbolters let the Sternguard shoot at targets they are moving away from, which is handy if the Razorback gets destroyed.

In particular the range of the Stormbolters will allow them to disembark from the Razorback without driving it within 12" of the enemy, within charge distance of most assault troops. It would be a good idea to take a couple of Melta Guns or Plasma Guns in the squad just in case though, to make up for the Stormbolters like of anti-vehicle/tank power.

I still do not see how taking Sternguard for this purpose is competes at all with Honor guard. The honor guard are cheaper, take no slot (althought require a captain, being the main downside).

When you get rid of the special ammo you are wasting points as the sternguard are more expensive out of the box than honor guard. The honor guard will be more resilient with FNP, thus making them better at taking an advanced firing position. Both squads have vetern stats so really you are paying more points but getting less back.

Perhaps the sternguard look good to you for this role, but I am going to have to disagree. I would far prefer Sternguard to be using special ammo - to the point that I wouldn't take most of the options there (only combis). If I want stormbolters its either tactical terminators or honor guard.

We may have to agree to disagree about the opportunity cost of this type of sternguard setup.

Dracos:

Honour Guard require a Chapter Master. You're thinking of Command Squads, which require a Captain. You may not wish to take either, and therefore do not have access to a Command squad.

Oops yeah I did that. Actually there is a reason I repeatedly make this mistake. My homebrew marines's Chapter Master is a counts-as captain due to a fluffy lack of available Orbital bombardments. As such, my "honor guard" for the "Chapter Master" uses the command squad rules.

You are correct, I am referring to Command Squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just re-read my post, cheers for randomized capitalization.

Dracos:

No worries, it was clear what you meant.

Razorbacks are good transports for either Command Squads or Sternguard Squads. They may even be a good option for a Vanguard Squad that's following Tactical squads up the field as a counter-assault unit.

Stern guard 2 attacks, Stormbolters 2 x shots = alot of very accurate lead regardless of Ammo type 'nids beware! Plus if i wanted TERMIES i would take TERMIES the fact i don't is to save points.......

If i had Chapter Master on the field he would definitely have the honour Guard.

Anyway this is totally my fault we are Massively off topic this is not a debate about the merits of Sternguard with various weaponry.

To return to thread, hiding behind a Razorback is as effective as hiding behind a sheet of A4, fact! plus at least with a sheet of A4 your save points IMO. Loving the banter and the debate though...

Um, mwnciboo, are you of the belief that the number of shots from the Stormbolters is multiplied by the model's number of Attacks?

Assault 2 for the Storm Bolters - So am I right in thinking that they can fire 2 shots into the enemy per Weapon in Assualt. I am willing to debate this i might have the wrong end of the stick.. Should we start this as a new thread before we kill this RAZORBACK thread???

mwnciboo:

No, you are wrong in thinking that they can fire 2 shots into the enemy per weapon in assault. They can fire two shots per shooting phase whether they move or not.

As for Razorbacks, it might be something to consider taking an armament that either complement's the content's weapons or doubles down on it.

Its a Bonus then they can move and shoot twice per shooting round. However i do defer to your superior knowledge just looked it up in my Codex the fact is I am Wrong.

Still, I don't like RAZORBACKS, my experiences have shown they very rarely if ever recoup the points you spend on them and that just results in Negative Points Equity IMO.

However "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. ~Aristotle" so lets Debate some more...

mwnciboo wrote:Its a Bonus then they can move and shoot twice per shooting round. However i do defer to your superior knowledge just looked it up in my Codex the fact is I am Wrong.

Still, I don't like RAZORBACKS, my experiences have shown they very rarely if ever recoup the points you spend on them and that just results in Negative Points Equity IMO....

Really? For 75 points I find a las/twin-plas back easily makes back its points every game. Kill just two terminators from rapid fire and you're there.

How often do you go up against Terminators in a Razor Back, Chaos Termies are rare as. (Unless your firing at your own Termies? )

mwnciboo wrote:How often do you go up against Terminators in a Razor Back, Chaos Termies are rare as. (Unless your firing at your own Termies? )

Or my opponents Salimander Terminators. Or take out four plague marines over the course of the game. Or four bezerkers. Or two attack bikes. Or a single chimera. Or a single wave serpent or falcon. There are lots of similiar units that a Razorback can kill over the course of a game to make its low point cost back.

Again My RAZORBACK rarely if ever survives into turn 2. It needs to survive to recoup points, Because it is basically a Rhino it will get hammered Hard and Relentlessly; its survival prospects are the same as fish out of water or a Paedophile in a Prison....

If you want to win, you need to play to your strengths and develop a strategy for SM which is a superior kill count and that means making the Enemy die and you survive. This simple mantra will at least allow you to draw, you should not worry about recouping points but in destroying as much as you can as quickly and efficiently as possible. You should be killing everything that moves, total annihilation is all that counts IMO. Does Marneus Calgar deploy to kill gretchin when he can kill some Nobbs ?? Me thinks not.

mwnciboo wrote:Again My RAZORBACK rarely if ever survives into turn 2. It needs to survive to recoup points,

What other armor are you fielding with your Razorback? Have you tried to park it behind a land raider?

Sternguard with storm bolters are terrible. You should never take them, at all, ever. Grey Knights cost less and are better.

Nurglitch wrote:I don't think the opportunity cost is that bad, particularly given what you can gain. You drive up 12", have the Sternguard pile out the back of the Razorback and take up firing positions in cover behind it, and then shoot at targets much further away than would be possible for Rapid Fire weapons. It's like doubling your Rapid Fire range while using the Razorback for cover.

If that's what you're trying to do, just take Grey Knights. S6 weapon in CC, always 2 attacks, and a storm bolter. Cheaper than Sternguard w/ storm bolter, and they'll fit in a Razorback just the same.

I guess I'm a bad critic though. I really do honestly believe that Sternguard suck.



5 of them in a Razorback weighs in at 200 points, and it's non-scoring unless you take Pedro. 5 Tactical Marines in a Razorback is 165, and it's scoring. Rapid firing those bolters will give you 6.6 hits, and roughly 5 wounds. Rapid firing the Tactical Squad's bolters, if Sarge has a bolter, will give you 6.6 hits, and 3.3 wounds against MEQs. I don't really think that 2 wounds with a bolter is worth 35 points, and the ability to score. Especially not in Razorbacks.




As for Razorbacks, they're a great substitute for Rhinos for your scoring units. Instead of 10 Tactical Marines in a Rhino for 205 points, which gets you 1 heavy weapon shot a turn, IF you don't move, while you sit on your butt next to an objective. For 165 points, you get 5 Tactical Marines, less survivable, but you can move 6 and fire a far superior heavy weapon.

IMO, spamming 5-man squads in Razorbacks is pretty viable for a mech list that plays a lot of enemy mech lists in the local metagame.

Fetterkey wrote:Sternguard with storm bolters are terrible. You should never take them, at all, ever. Grey Knights cost less and are better.

QFT

Fetterkey wrote:Sternguard with storm bolters are terrible. You should never take them, at all, ever. Grey Knights cost less and are better.

I'll just +2 this one.

mwnciboo wrote:Again My RAZORBACK rarely if ever survives into turn 2. It needs to survive to recoup points, Because it is basically a Rhino it will get hammered Hard and Relentlessly; its survival prospects are the same as fish out of water or a Paedophile in a Prison....

If you want to win, you need to play to your strengths and develop a strategy for SM which is a superior kill count and that means making the Enemy die and you survive. This simple mantra will at least allow you to draw, you should not worry about recouping points but in destroying as much as you can as quickly and efficiently as possible. You should be killing everything that moves, total annihilation is all that counts IMO. Does Marneus Calgar deploy to kill gretchin when he can kill some Nobbs ?? Me thinks not.

One, you can ask anyone in Killeen and I win quite often with my marines. So try not to be so hasty in labelling people as 'poor' generals just because you disagree with their playstyle. I typically field 4 las/plas razorbacks along with 2 predator variants and 2 attack bike squadrons as a core. My opponent usually has some tough targetting decisions to make and I usually get good returns off my razorbacks. Quantity is its own kind of survivability in 40K because they can't kill everything. And Marneus would definately kill some gretchin if its the bottom of six and they are holding an objective.