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http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=151591914

So they want to march through the town where traditionally our dead soldiers are honored when repatriated. The snake in charge of ISLAM4UK is Anjem Choudry. The man is very well known to me personally, i recall seeing him on the BBC ranting about making the UK a muslim country back in 2003 and i have followed his career personally as i feel strongly about this matter due to my military connections.

Anyway, like any centrist (well, slightly right of centre these days it must be said) i find it difficult to think of a sensible solution to things like this, i mean, of course he has the "right" to march through any town he likes, and they say it will be peaceful, yet at the same time, is it not just a recipe for disaster?

For example, this type of thing will no doubt encourage our more right wing citizens, the chavvy type of people who let their fists or mouths ride off far before their brains are in the saddle, to engage in a bit of muslim baiting, so you could argue that the march could be banned for the marchers own safety. Also, it seems very crass to have the march here, of all places.

What is a sensible solution? Choudry is no doubt under very strict surveillence after they shut his pro muslim orginisation down, i dont doubt he is not doing anything illegal as we would be aware of it and the man would be currently going through the judicial system. If we start shutting people up, well, we know where that can lead. I have long been an advocate of free speech, i especially believe in it due to my religious beliefs, i believe that if you are not bascially inciting a riot, you should always be allowed to say what you like. And i should always be free to give my rebuttal if what you have said is demonstrably ignorant or false.

Despite me loathing this man with a passion i find difficult to contain, i will never allow myself to be a hypocrite. All of this means i personally think that the march should be allowed, as long as the next time a bunch of Atheists want to picket a mosque or the English Defence league want to march somewhere, then they get given the same freedom.

What are your thoughts? Should aggresive marches be banned? What sensible action can we or the government take? When can we draw a line under what is good/bad taste and what should be allowed?

There will be blood.

If not now, then soon - mark my words. Tolerance only stretches so far.

The location and reasoning behind the march seem pretty well chosen. They want to incite anger within the right wing segment of your population so as to cause reactionary action against them, thus strengthening their position as a persecuted minority to their sympathizers. Just let them march, give it extra security to avoid violence, and then forget about it.


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Albatross wrote:There will be blood.

If not now, then soon - mark my words. Tolerance only stretches so far.

Classy.

In many ways this reminds me of the debates that take place when groups like the Klan want to march here in America.
While I despise their agenda,I deffend their right to assemble and march/protest,it's easy to deffend free speach when it's "popular speach",but the true test is deffending "unpopular views" and the rights of those who hold them.

Shuma, i dont think it was "unclassy" what albatross said, he was clearly refering to the fact that this type of thing puts muslims and more aggresive non muslims at loggerheads. He may well be right if we keep this up, i am entirely expecting some of our more aggresive citizens to turn up for this and cause some bother.

Maybe the BNP will turn up, then we will all be wondering just who we dislike more?

Hey that might be a great idea! They can beat each other senseless and i wont care who wins or loses! Maybe we can enourage the police not to turn up for this one. They can sort it out amongst themselves.

Hey that might be a great idea! They can beat each other senseless and i wont care who wins or loses! Maybe we can enourage the police not to turn up for this one. They can sort it out amongst themselves.

That would only exasperate the situation.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Hey that might be a great idea! They can beat each other senseless and i wont care who wins or loses! Maybe we can enourage the police not to turn up for this one. They can sort it out amongst themselves.

That would only exasperate the situation.

Like that has ever stopped idiots from being idiots.

Ahtman wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Hey that might be a great idea! They can beat each other senseless and i wont care who wins or loses! Maybe we can enourage the police not to turn up for this one. They can sort it out amongst themselves.

That would only exasperate the situation.

Like that has ever stopped idiots from being idiots.

No, but one would think that it would lesson the amount of "hurr hurr, i hope they beat eachother up" sentiment.

Yeah i was kidding of course, if they "left them too it" then the ancient market down would probably end up as rubble within the hour, ive seen first hand what a thousand pissed off protesters can do if left to their own devices. You should have seen Baghdad after we "won" the war!

@Matty+Shuma - yeah, I meant that the more right-wing sections of society will be in danger of boiling over into violence if this sort of thing continues. In fact, at times it almost seems that this is entirely the point behind the type of 'tolerance' exhibited in the UK these days.
Maybe that's just me being cynical .

I don't understand people like this because:
1. This is just gonna piss people off, to increase the publics perception of muslims that have died in the war, we know they have died in the war its on the news every day, maybe this guy should protest in the different areas of Iraq, seeing as the majority of muslim deaths are caused be different muslim sects, not by British soldiers.
2. If he wants to live in a muslim county he should move to one, he has many to choose from, spanning Africa, the Middle East and the asian pacific area, if you want to be part of a country's majority instead of being a minority, just move, I don't see why someone who has so much contempt for the country he lives in doesn't move (its like moving to France and then complaining everyone speaks french).

As long as its peaceful, let 'em march. To play devil's advocate I'd imagine it could be a pretty bad experience to be a Muslim in a predominately Christan nation whose military is involved in other nation's affairs. Especially since us Westerners pay so much tribute to volunteers who sacrifice their lives even though they're part of a very controversial larger-picture loaded with unfortunate consequences such as having a huge number of Muslim families displaced, broken apart, killed, etc. And on top of that there's about zilch in terms of remembering innocent civilian casualties of the wars our armed forces are involved with....and, flat-out, its just not a good time to be a Muslim in the Christian West due to the status quo.

Freedom of speech/assembly is a great concept - I may loathe an organization's mission (extreme examples: KKK, Neo-Nazis) but as long as they're performing peacefully then its fair game. I'd rather citizens have the option to peacefully protest in order to voice their opinions rather than leaving them with only illegal and often violent alternatives.

"If this man has any decency about him he will not hold a march through Wootton Bassett."

If he had any decency, if he felt so strongly about living in a muslim nation, he'd have moved to live in one... oh, wait, they are all sandy gak-holes where he's already well past the average lifespan ruled over by foam mouthed zealots with more concern about ensuring a teenage girl is buried up to her neck and stoned alive for 'witchcraft' rather than sorting out clean water or educating the children.

Seriously if followers of this 'warm and accepting' religion feel so strongly about the infidel, what the hell are they doing walking the infidel's streets? By all means, vacate them, now.

I been passionately against fascism and nationalism my whole life, and yet now we face, within the UK, a religion every inch as contemptible and dedicated to the erosion of personal liberty and freedom, a misogynist faith that wants to 'assimilate' us or kill us if we will not comply.

I'm so fed up watching them scream abuse at us and us offer them further incentives and deride anyone who speaks out against them as 'racist'. If unchecked, they will tear this country down into the same dark ages behaviour they extol.

I think this guy says it just about how I am feeling with the Islamification of the UK.

MGS wins the classy award!

in a town known for, and reciveing the honored dead killed in battle, an extreamist or sympathetic to extreamest, islamic group wants to march as a point for those killed for.... what was it??? muslims murdered in the name of democracy and freedom?.

Well i hope it shall not be allowed.

in the event it does. i hope the SOBs bring there own body bags. its a slap at the servicemen that protect not only england but canada, and the US. let em bleed in the streets. its what they deserve. nuffs a nuff.

mattyrm wrote:So they want to march through the town where traditionally our dead soldiers are honored when repatriated. The snake in charge of ISLAM4UK is Anjem Choudry.

Wait wait wait. "Islam4UK"? Is this a Facebook group that's spiraled out of control?

The man is very well known to me personally, i recall seeing him on the BBC ranting about making the UK a muslim country back in 2003 and i have followed his career personally as i feel strongly about this matter due to my military connections.

Anyway, like any centrist (well, slightly right of centre these days it must be said) i find it difficult to think of a sensible solution to things like this, i mean, of course he has the "right" to march through any town he likes, and they say it will be peaceful, yet at the same time, is it not just a recipe for disaster?

For example, this type of thing will no doubt encourage our more right wing citizens, the chavvy type of people who let their fists or mouths ride off far before their brains are in the saddle, to engage in a bit of muslim baiting, so you could argue that the march could be banned for the marchers own safety.

Interestingly, they said the same thing during the civil rights movement in the United States. "Oh, of course those nice black fellas want to protest the Jim Crow laws, but they don't know what they're getting themselves into! People are going to get mad at them, and might hurt them... better shut down their speech/protest/march for their own good."

It's paternalistic and it rewards violence, although I'm sure some people there will argue for it just the same (probably people who hate them but feel a need to be politically correct).

Also, it seems very crass to have the march here, of all places.

What is a sensible solution? Choudry is no doubt under very strict surveillence after they shut his pro muslim orginisation down, i dont doubt he is not doing anything illegal as we would be aware of it and the man would be currently going through the judicial system. If we start shutting people up, well, we know where that can lead. I have long been an advocate of free speech, i especially believe in it due to my religious beliefs, i believe that if you are not bascially inciting a riot, you should always be allowed to say what you like. And i should always be free to give my rebuttal if what you have said is demonstrably ignorant or false.

Despite me loathing this man with a passion i find difficult to contain, i will never allow myself to be a hypocrite. All of this means i personally think that the march should be allowed, as long as the next time a bunch of Atheists want to picket a mosque or the English Defence league want to march somewhere, then they get given the same freedom.

This sounds best to me. After all, the whole purpose of freedom of speech is to allow the unpopular opinions to be expressed.

in the event it does. i hope the SOBs bring there own body bags. its a slap at the servicemen that protect not only england but canada, and the US. let em bleed in the streets. its what they deserve. nuffs a nuff.

ShumaGorath wrote:The location and reasoning behind the march seem pretty well chosen. They want to incite anger within the right wing segment of your population so as to cause reactionary action against them, thus strengthening their position as a persecuted minority to their sympathizers.

You do realize that your essentially playing into their hands Hawkins? By garnering international attention via a disallowed or victimized march they would strengthen their positions abroad, and likely manage to further polarize the english religious community, forcing more moderate muslims into defensive attitudes towards the local politick? Reactionary and emotional sentiment is exactly what they want.

ShumaGorath wrote:MGS wins the classy award!

Excellent.
You, Shuma, win the award for living in a colossal and safely removed nation with massive natural reserves, who's only neighbours are the poor folks in the basement that do your gardening and the happy liberal in the attic.

Do make sure 'Juan' doesn't forget to trim the magnolias now...

Shuma, i suppose your right, it burns me arse, people like that shouldnt be allowed to do things like this.

MSG: who you calling a gardener? theirs an old joke that says, when a canadian rents out an outhouse, he lets the top floor to the mexicans, i guess you can have the basement for that statement

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:MGS wins the classy award!

Excellent.
You, Shuma, win the award for living in a colossal and safely removed nation with massive natural reserves, who's only neighbours are the poor folks in the basement that do your gardening and the happy liberal in the attic.

Do make sure 'Juan' doesn't forget to trim the magnolias now...

Wait aren't you an island? Your only neighbor is atlantis and the angry dudes that live in your house and drink a lot.

Shuma, i suppose your right, it burns me arse, people like that shouldnt be allowed to do things like this.

It's quite understandable to be pissed. They're massive D-bags. But its a foundation our civilization that freedom of speech be free regardless of who is speaking, and every time we cave in on our principles for better ease of living we aid those that say we are decadent and immoral. In this case it just so happens that thats exactly what they want.

ShumaGorath wrote: Reactionary and emotional sentiment is exactly what they want.

Only to an extent, when the West stops acting like a senile parent being abused by it's morally vacuous teenage offspring, when we actually start smacking back, then they may well regret stirring the slumbering West to wake with real anger.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote: Reactionary and emotional sentiment is exactly what they want.

Only to an extent, when the West stops acting like a senile parent being abused by it's morally vacuous teenage offspring, when we actually start smacking back, then they may well regret stirring the slumbering West to wake with real anger.

... How many wars do we have to be in before we "wake up?" China is a sleeping military disinterested in world affairs. The U.S. and europe are so awake I fear we're addicted to cocaine.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Wait aren't you an island? Your only neighbor is atlantis and the angry dudes that live in your house and drink a lot.

The British Channel, 21 miles across, was slightly useful for keeping out armies.
The European Union, unfortunately open bordered and so facilitating travel across nations.
Having the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans as natural buffers... Priceless.


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ShumaGorath wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote: Reactionary and emotional sentiment is exactly what they want.

Only to an extent, when the West stops acting like a senile parent being abused by it's morally vacuous teenage offspring, when we actually start smacking back, then they may well regret stirring the slumbering West to wake with real anger.

... How many wars do we have to be in before we "wake up?" China is a sleeping military disinterested in world affairs. The U.S. and europe are so awake I fear we're addicted to cocaine.

We have not 'taken the gloves off' for a long time. If the West was not 'liberating' or 'intervening' but actually all out craved a war, was so wounded and entrenched that it fully lashed out, that is what I'm referring to.

ISLAM4UK will either get the go ahead to march or will hold a token or symbolic rally off the main high street after being advised by the police and other interested parties.

To be fair I had forgotten they existed which is probably the point for this action.

The klan marches on every MLK day just pay them no mind as long as they don't hurt anybody. Don't Opress them or they win.

This is a situation to which there are no easy answers. Or at least no easy ones I can think of.

One of the few bad things about freedom of speech is that you will inevitably have to put up with unsavory characters using it to spread lies, hatred and misinformation. You also need to grow a thick skin. No one has the right to never be offended and I have no time for anyone who thinks that they should be immune to criticism, offence or even ridicule, for any reason, not just religious ones.

Do Muslims have the right to protest against a war which can potentially be viewed not so much as a war against extremists but as a war against Islam itself? Now on the face of it this seems like a perfectly reasonable request. After all anti war protests where commonplace back in 2003 and few complained. In fact many applauded.

But that is precisely why I am suspicious of the motivations of this protest. There is, in the UK, a huge amount an anti war sentiment and I don't see how a protest against the war normally would get anything other than praise. However most protests against the war firstly are protesting against the government and not the army and thus are held around places of Government not outside of military bases. Particularly bases which are famous for being the place where dead troops are brought home. If this genuinely was about simply protesting the war there are plenty of ways this could he been done in order to capitalise on anti war feeling amongst the non Muslim population, thus gaining their sympathy. This however just seem to be about making it an us and them conflict. Islam vs the world. It's an utter sham. I also believe that the majority of people protesting are probably not inherently anti west but have themselves been manipulated by some people higher up who are. When this gets violent it simply make the charade complete.

Should the law stop them? Well I'm not sure. I don't think the population of the town or even the families of the soldiers have an inherent right not to be offended. I don't think anyone does. The best way to deal with this would be to either:

A) Ignore it.
B) Defeat their arguments peacefully through reason and logic.

But things just aren't that simple.

Let 'em march and look the other way. When your five year old throws a tantrum you ignore them and they don't get their desired reaction. Same deal here. They deserve freedom of speech just like everyone else, even if the're offending grieving families and being trolls in general. It's not pretty, and it's not nice, but it is fair. I think a better solution instead of getting the government involved, is for the citizens in that town to all stay home and ignore the protest. Don't feed the troll! If they do that Choudry and his cronies will be left frustrated and disappointed.

e have not 'taken the gloves off' for a long time. If the West was not 'liberating' or 'intervening' but actually all out craved a war, was so wounded and entrenched that it fully lashed out, that is what I'm referring to.

Considering we have more personnel stationed overseas than you have active personnel period I think you blokes across the sea could serve to pick up the pace a bit. Or at least stop reducing your contributions .

ShumaGorath wrote:

e have not 'taken the gloves off' for a long time. If the West was not 'liberating' or 'intervening' but actually all out craved a war, was so wounded and entrenched that it fully lashed out, that is what I'm referring to.

Considering we have more personnel stationed overseas than you have active personnel period I think you blokes across the sea could serve to pick up the pace a bit. Or at least stop reducing your contributions .

And how do our contributions shape up against our GNP and population sizes...

@Shuma - Pick up the pace?

ShumaGorath, meet....


FRANCE!