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Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope





I remember when the Tau came out every buddy was all hot and bothered about the guns of the Tau. Then it went to the suits and hopw they can bonce all around but in My experience As a Bug Player they Both kind of sucked, But recently I ran into a small cache of Tau Units i would like to get into them. What is better? The real hardcore gun line or going mobile? or is tau pretty dead untill a codex rewrite?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/07 03:06:47


 
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

Gunlines have problems with objective missions.
* Gunlines have a hard time grabbing objectives in the middle of the board.
* Gunlines have a hard time grabbing objectives on the other deployment zone.
* Gunlines can have objectives in their deployment zone easily contested.

So for 1/3 of the games, a gunline works great.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/07 05:42:52


 
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot





Straight up gunlines are dead however hybrid lists are quite powerful. Set up a firebase with mobile elements to support it and I guarantee you'll have some fun.

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[DCM]
Sentient OverBear






Clearwater, FL

I second Aftersong. It gives you firepower and mobility, and has worked well enough for me.

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Trust me, no matter what damage they have the potential to do, single-shot weapons always flatter to deceive in 40k.                                                                                                       Rule #1
- BBAP

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

I'm a wild fan of the gunline. I'm not writing a book on this one because I've done so before and you can search my posts for it - but the short of it is this: Mobility and firepower have an inverse relationship. The more you take of one, the less you get of the other. Annihilation games are terrifically fun and quite easy for a gunline. As for objective based missions, I play to table my opponents. Objectives go out in the open where possible so that I can freely nuke anything that even THINKS about getting close to it. Markerlights ensure that enemy units sitting back on rear objectives don't get a cover save, and the sheer volume of leadership tests you can force between sniper drones, markerlights, and scattered carbines is unholy.

If "static" gunline means that no unit moves and you just have a firebase -probably not a great idea.

If "static" gunline means that you have no vehicles, I support this one fully (except perhaps for a pathfinder fish that dumps its pathfinders and hides for late game use by firewarriors). Its really all about positioning.

   
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Sentient OverBear






Clearwater, FL

Dashofpepper, perhaps you could write an article based on your previous long posts? It'd be easy to link to, and we do need more Tactical articles...

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- BBAP

 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




The Hybrid Tau list is absolutely amazing. Its a gunline, however it is decently mobile.

And yes, a lot of people think tau are dead, until they play against said list and realize how wrong they are.

Hybrid Tau is actually one of the strongest armies at the moment.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Chicago

CptZach wrote:The Hybrid Tau list is absolutely amazing. Its a gunline, however it is decently mobile.

And yes, a lot of people think tau are dead, until they play against said list and realize how wrong they are.

Hybrid Tau is actually one of the strongest armies at the moment.


whats a decent hybrid tau list look like? Every 5th edition game i've seen the tau in they get crushed


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Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Cheapest Fireknife commander

3x Fireknives (Plasma, MP, MT)
3x Fireknives (Plasma, MP, MT)
3x Fireknives (Plasma, MP, MT)

6 Firewarrior
10x Kroot, 7x hounds
10x Kroot, 7x hounds

2x Piranha, Fusion Blaster (x2) Disruption Pod (x1); Target Lock (x1); Targeting Array (x2)

2x Piranha, Fusion Blaster (x2) Disruption Pod (x1); Target Lock (x1); Targeting Array (x2)

8 Pathfinder
1 Devilfish
Burst Cannon; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array, Target Lock

1 Hammerhead Gunship
Railgun; Burst Cannon; Disruption Pod; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array, Target Lock

1 Hammerhead Gunship
Railgun; Burst Cannon; Disruption Pod; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array

1 Broadside Battlesuit
Team Leader; Twin linked Railgun; Broadside Battlesuit; Smart Missile System; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Hard-wired Target Lock; Shield Drone; Advanced Stabilisation System
-1 Broadside Battlesuit
Twin linked Railgun; Smart Missile System; Advanced Stabilisation System
-2 Shield Drone
Shield Generator

You can drop 2 piranhas for a second set of pathfinders, then you just use 6 in each squad. I am considering switching to this and think its probably stronger, allowing you to light up 2 units a turn to blow up.

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Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot





@cptzach thats more of a mechtau then a hybrid imo

personally I think hybrid looks a bit more like

Helios shas'el

3x firefknife XV8

3x12 Firewarriors ui, Bonding Knife
2x warfish

3x3xSniper drones

3xbroadsides

Hammerhead

8x Pathfinders w/warfish

leave the firewarriors out of the fish (preferably inside a multi story building) hide the fish behind terrain make use of their sms till the end of the game when they swing around pick up the firewarriors and claim objectives. in the meantime you have str 5 shots coming out of your arse. Light up the biggest threat and dakka it away into nothing rinse lather repeat using your mobile elements to repel your enemies attempts to circumvent your firepower.

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Made in us
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader





They are technically both hybrid. Unfortunately your build uses lots of useless firewarriors. And not enough fireknives.

My 40k Theory Blog
 
   
Made in us
Drone without a Controller





USA, CA

The usefulness of Firewarriors has reduced since 5th edition, Fish of Fury is not that useful anymore and gunline is not recommended, especially against Space Marines. I say try going Mech Tau, where all of your forces can move more than 6 inches, Devilfishs loaded with Fire Warriors to clean up after Crisis Suits after they mop the floor with enemy troops, use the Tau's mobility to your advantage. Disruption pods for your vehicles is an absolute MUST since they give you a 4+ cover save against anything 12 inches away from you.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/08 08:17:14


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Dear Lord, will you two stop?

Firewarriors are NOT useless. Fireknives are the most generic, unholy, and terrible suit configuration for suits. You put a long range and a short range weapon with two completely different purposes on the same suit so that the squad of suits can't actually excel at anything. Brilliant idea, and while it is wildly popular, its amongst the worst configurations.

In fact, the popularity of that and other terrible ideas (like firewarriors being worthless) might be a significant part of the reason that Tau players are getting crushed in 5th edition: Sheer stupidity.

Yeah, that's harsh...but it is what it is.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Hillsboro, Oregon

No option for a little of both!

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Dashofpepper wrote:

In fact, the popularity of that and other terrible ideas (like firewarriors being worthless) might be a significant part of the reason that Tau players are getting crushed in 5th edition: Sheer stupidity.


Statement: correct

Reasoning: bassackwards. :(

Plas/missile suits are powerful because both weapons are high strength and both are long ranged - just put your thumb over the AP value and pretend it's not there. It's really not the point of combining the two weapons. They go together because they're FLEXIBLE, they can take on any targets from swarms of scrubs up to armor 12.

Is a squad of specialized battlesuits really worth it when you've only got 3 of them available per game? I don't think it is. By making them generalists they become only marginally less powerful against most targets, but they're more effective vs a wider range of targets.

Try out a shorter ranged build when the new tyranids come out, you won't like it much (hell, you play orks, which are you more scared of? the one that operates effectively outside of your charge range or the one that doesn't? seriously). MP/plas suits will continue to be good thanks to the range to keep themselves safe and a good number of high strength shots to threaten most targets.

As for the fire warriors, let's consider what makes a good troop unit. It needs to be at LEAST one of these things:

Cheap
Tough
Dangerous

The best troops have 2 of these qualities. Look at plague marines - tough as hell, and potentially dangerous to anything with a couple meltas and a PF. That's a good troop unit. Look at the veteran squad. They're ridiculously cheap, and they can be kitted out to be a major threat to anything on the table. Look at plaguebearers. They're hard to put down and cheap enough that you won't care if they actually do die and on top of that they serve another purpose unique to their army, they bulk up your FOC to let you fit more of what you want in your first wave.

Fire Warriors? Fire warriors try to be dangerous at the cost of the other 2, but instead fail at all 3. They're expensive, fragile, and struggle to earn their points back - in 5th edition, that's a liability. People are going to want to shoot at them because they give the illusion of being dangerous, and when you're wimpy enough to be scared of every bullet, expletive and angry glare that comes your way pretending to be dangerous is a pretty bad thing.

There's nothing they can do for your army that kroot can't do better. Take the mandatory 6, put them in the pathfinder's devilfish, hope you never have to put them on the board after that.

I'm curious to hear how you would define an effective troops unit, and why you think fire warriors are so awesome, because you're definitely in the minority here.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/10 06:51:33


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cincy, OH

Really depends where/how you play. In a tourny environment, a Hybrid list like one of the above really does well. Everybody is bringing Mech lists to tournies these days, and the railguns and missile pods really do well against them. In a friendly casual gamer environment, where you could run into a assualty horde army, you could have problems no matter what you bring.

Dash, you're crazy if you think fireknives suck. Combined with your similarly armed HQ and pathfinders, they are one of the most dangerous units in the game. If you need to stop huge unit of terminators that just dumped out of a Landraider, this is your unit.

Thing is in 5th, the Hybrid list plays both ways. It is really a gun line that can get squirly when need it.

And I am not getting crushed by anybody in 5th....

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/10 15:53:08


burp. 
   
Made in us
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Dayton, Ohio

Guys this is not about firewarriors, this is about different styles of playing Tau....although since Firewarriors are manditory troops, I guess it is kinda about firewarriors.

Firewarriors have a 30" rapid fire gun, which makes them good in two extremes of range, at beyond 24", blasting away (probably tag-teamed with pathfinders) at enemy infantry....or at relatively close range, rapid firing. Which means that fire-warriors can fit in both a mobile AND a static force. The other troops, kroot, can stand and screen the firewarriors (and have a 2+ save while doing it) or they can outflank, thus providing a shock attack element to a mobile force. I believe a good army (Tau or otherwise) can afford to have SOME static elements and SOME mobile elements. It can't focus too hard on either, but as long as it has both, it should work out fine.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Spelling? Well excuse me, I thought we were discussing the rules as written.
Don't worry, I'm a certified speed freek
Know who else are speed freeks? and  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




It is true that Fire Warriors have good range. It's also true that with Pathfinders to support them they can actually kill something.

What situation does it ever make sense to use a PF to give FW markerlights? First of all, most targets you'll be firing at will get their armor against you anyway, so you'll only use 2 markerlight hits out of an average 4 for an 8 strong PF squad which means either

A - you waste some

B - you're forced to put ANOTHER Fire Warrior squad close enough to be in danger to use up the rest (and seriously guys, when was the last time ANY of you broke a sweat putting down 6-12 T3 4+ models? probably never. If FW hit the board close enough to be attacked, they die.)

and that's no good. Crisis teams, Hammerheads, Broadsides - these guys get markerlights. They also work perfectly with the "magic number" for markerlights, the 4 average hits you get, because it lets you add 1 to BS, and completely strip a cover save. If you have more markerlight units than you have Crisis/railguns, you need to redesign your army a lot more than you need to buff your Fire Warriors.

If there's ever a target on the board, you can bet that there's something worth multiplying to shoot at it a lot more than Fire Warriors. So yeah, those guys basically never get marker lights which means you've got 12 guys at BS3 S5 for 120 points minimum? Not impressive. Nobody is scared of that, not even guard.

Once you accept that when playing Tau your troops aren't there for killing stuff, you'll be on your way to making a better army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/10 18:38:33


 
   
Made in sg
Regular Dakkanaut




I have not seen any Tau making it to the top in any tournament that I went (unless someone can prove me wrong), so discussion about what is a competitive build for Tau is nothing more than theory hammering, by anyone here.
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






grankobot wrote:
As for the fire warriors, let's consider what makes a good troop unit. It needs to be at LEAST one of these things:

Cheap
Tough
Dangerous

The best troops have 2 of these qualities. Look at plague marines - tough as hell, and potentially dangerous to anything with a couple meltas and a PF. That's a good troop unit. Look at the veteran squad. They're ridiculously cheap, and they can be kitted out to be a major threat to anything on the table. Look at plaguebearers. They're hard to put down and cheap enough that you won't care if they actually do die and on top of that they serve another purpose unique to their army, they bulk up your FOC to let you fit more of what you want in your first wave.

Fire Warriors? Fire warriors try to be dangerous at the cost of the other 2, but instead fail at all 3. They're expensive, fragile, and struggle to earn their points back - in 5th edition, that's a liability. People are going to want to shoot at them because they give the illusion of being dangerous, and when you're wimpy enough to be scared of every bullet, expletive and angry glare that comes your way pretending to be dangerous is a pretty bad thing.


Firewarriors sitting in cover are a lot less fragile. They can reach out with their S5 weapons 30 inches.

12 pts. is not all that expensive. When you take into effect that their ability to shoot effectively increases when used with markerlight hits they start to look undercosted.

If you are playing a Tau army with lots of firewarriors and not a lot of markerlights you will feel that the firewarriors are not worth it. They need to synergize with pathfinders, or anything else you can put a markerlight on. Then they come into thier own.

grankobot wrote:There's nothing they can do for your army that kroot can't do better. Take the mandatory 6, put them in the pathfinder's devilfish, hope you never have to put them on the board after that.


Firewarriors can outshoot kroot every day of the week. Better range, better strength shot.

grankobot wrote:I'm curious to hear how you would define an effective troops unit, and why you think fire warriors are so awesome, because you're definitely in the minority here.


Well I didn't come up with a fancy three check system like you did but based off of experience of playing Tau I can say that firewarriors have been an effective unit for me. I like having lots of S5 weapons bearing down on my opponents. Maybe it's just me, but I've done better with tau once I dropped my kroot and spent more points on firewarriors.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/11 06:14:45


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




If you are playing a Tau army with lots of firewarriors and not a lot of markerlights you will feel that the firewarriors are not worth it. They need to synergize with pathfinders, or anything else you can put a markerlight on. Then they come into thier own.


My point is that you can't cram enough markerlights into a list (without some serious point waste anyway) to have spares for the FW.

You get 3 Pathfinder teams.

You get 3 Crisis teams and 3 railgun platforms of your choice.

A given army list is much more likely to maximize the elites and HS slots before FA.

Crisis teams, Hammerheads, and Broadsides all benefit more from MLs than FW will.

If all of the above is true, why would you ever plan your game around FW getting markerlight support when the reality of the situation is that you only have enough tokens if

A:

The FW double up on targets with the Crisis suits every turn

and B:

You roll high enough on your markerlight hits that you have enough counters in the first place to be usable by multiple units.

If my battle plan relies on a string of "maybes", I need to fix something. Sure, FW can shoot better than Kroot (on a model for model basis, but point for point it's pretty damn close for what you'll want to be shooting them at) but troops don't do the heavy lifting in a Tau army. They're your blocking units, they screen, they take up fire, they get assaulted so your important guys don't have to.

They don't win the game for you, they open the door for the heavy hitters to do it. Kroot fill that role much, much more effectively than FWs ever will. They get full marks for being cheap, and 50% for being durable since you can generally afford to have them go to ground. 2+ in woods, 3+ everywhere else = groovy.

orkish wrote:I have not seen any Tau making it to the top in any tournament that I went (unless someone can prove me wrong), so discussion about what is a competitive build for Tau is nothing more than theory hammering, by anyone here.


When you say "any tournament" do you really mean any tournament at all, or any big name posted all over the interwebz ard boyz/adepticon/whatever kind of tournament? Because between the last 2 locals I've been to with my tau I was first overall for one, second for another, and highest battle points for both without losing a single game.

Tau are a great army. There are just too many people who are trying to make their 4th edition lists work when they... don't. lol

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/11 07:38:04


 
   
Made in sg
Regular Dakkanaut




Ok, I got to rephrase myself. Any "BIG" tournament.
I don't think very much of people who win first in local tournies. That just mean NOTHING to me.

Well, if you are doing SOOO well with your Tau, I ll love to see your big name in any GT or the Ard Boyz.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/11 09:29:14


 
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

grankobot wrote:
They're expensive, fragile, and struggle to earn their points back - in 5th edition, that's a liability.
You had me until you mentioned this. "Getting their points back" is a 4th edition term. 5th edition is about VPs and Objectives, with 2/3 of the missions being objectives.

If a squad of fire warriors does not kill a single model, but squats on an objective and secures it for you, then it has proved a valuable asset, even though it did not earn a single point 'back'.
   
Made in au
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine





Australia

HQ
Shas'0l- missile pod, Fusion blaster, Shield Generator,stimulant injector,bonding knife, hardwired multi-tracker-144

Elite

3xcrisis Plasma Rifle, Missile pod, Targeting array-201

Troops

11xfirewarrior-team leader, bonding knife-125
Transport- Devilfish- targeting array, disruption pod, decoy launchers-100

10xfirewarrior-team leader, bonding knife-115

10xfirewarrior-team leader, bonding knife-115

fast attack

6xPathfinders-72
Transport- Devilfish- targeting array, disruption pod, decoy launchers-100

Heavy support

2xBroadside- Advanced stabilization-180

Hammerhead Gunship-Burst cannons, disruption pod, multi-tracker, flechette discharger -170

Hammerhead Gunship-Burst cannons, disruption pod, multi-tracker, flechette discharger -170

Would you say this is hybrid?

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[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Lorek wrote:Dashofpepper, perhaps you could write an article based on your previous long posts? It'd be easy to link to, and we do need more Tactical articles...
Second. I'd be keen to see this talk developed into a coherent tactica with an appended argument thread rather than cluttered up with the usual bickering. Please do this if you find the time, DoP.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




labmouse42 wrote:
grankobot wrote:
They're expensive, fragile, and struggle to earn their points back - in 5th edition, that's a liability.
You had me until you mentioned this. "Getting their points back" is a 4th edition term. 5th edition is about VPs and Objectives, with 2/3 of the missions being objectives.

If a squad of fire warriors does not kill a single model, but squats on an objective and secures it for you, then it has proved a valuable asset, even though it did not earn a single point 'back'.


This is where the "expensive and fragile" part comes in. They won't earn you any KPs because they're not dangerous enough to do anything meaningful on their own. They won't earn you any objectives because they're just barely dangerous enough to register as a threat and squishy enough to be worth shooting. Put them on the board, and they will die. Every game. Without doing anything useful.

When I say "won't earn their points back" it's a less direct way of saying they suck. Don't take it literally.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/12 05:24:58


 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





Firewarriors are NOT useless.


Well, clearly they're not useless, since they're mandatory, and thus have to be part of any Tau list.

That said, they're one of the more subpar Troops choices in the game.

Their shooting is roughly as good as a SM with a Bolter against infatry, which is nice, but that's where the good news ends. They've got no sort of special or heavy weapons, so they never get any better. And, as we all know, they're so miserable in CC that virtually any unit, or remnant of a unit, that can get to them can finish them off.

They have the Devilfish to transport them, and while it's one of the better transports in the game, it's still overpriced by a good 20 points.

This is a unit that's fallen victim to being fairly middling to begin with, and then some pretty aggressive Codex creep.

Compare them to one of the best Troops in the game, the Battle Sister. They're inferior virtually every piece of the statline, their shooting is inferior when you factor in the Sister's options, then you throw in Acts of Faith and the Sister's other special rules. All that, for 1 point more.

Fireknives are the most generic, unholy, and terrible suit configuration for suits.


To me this sounds like "going against conventional wisdom for the sake of going against conventional wisdom." By no means is Fireknife the only suit build, but it is the best all around build. If I could only have one, it's the one I'd take. Since I can have more than one, I take Deathrains and Plas/Fusion (whatever that's called) as well, but Fireknife is still the default.

The fact of the matters is that Tau are one of the weaker Codices going right now. I'm not saying they can't win. I'm not saying that you haven't had success with them, or that some people aren't playing them badly. But they're one of the weaker Codices. I'd only place Necrons and Daemonhunters as being harder to win with. Maybe Dark Angels.

Not coincidentally, they are one of the oldest current Codices. Only BTs, Witchhunters, Daemonhunters, Dark Eldar and Necrons are older. BTs have the benefit of Preferred Enemy to restore their chance to compete, Witchhunters have oddly withstood the test of time, and Dark Eldar are so rare and unusual that they give most armies trouble.



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