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Hey there,

Pretty brief post I guess and I hope it doesn't come accross as an attack but why exactly are some players so die-hard in favour of bringing back the squats? I mean I might understand steampunk fans being interested (but I really don't think it fits 40k too well) but sci-fi really isn't a place where dwarves make sense to me. Sure, one can argue about other types of abhuman being present within the universe but grudge-bearing squats are just laughable to me... especially within IG regiments, then again I am not a Ratling fan either.

It seems to me that squats would be a silly move as well; if people like Dwarves they can collect fantasy, the models would just be ugly and out of place in 40k and were probably pulled for a reason, I imagine it's only veteran niche players and not the wider gaming community that even likes squats... they must have been pulled for a reason.

What we REALLY NEED are Praetorians

Most people that like squats now were not old enough to buy them when they were on the shelf.

The reason they want them is because they can't have them, its a basic human response.


Also collecting Squats, Genestealer Cult, or even Dark Eldar , gives you an appearance of 40k maturity or some sort of geek status symbol.

Well, I could be dead wrong about this, but my theory is that people always want what they can't have-The Squats being removed makes them a lot more desirable than they were when they were available.
Let me explain: Say your a baby, in a cot. You've got a stuffed toy in there with you, but you're not really intrested in it. Now, if I come and take the toy out, the chances are your going to want it back, because I've stopped you from having it even if you didn't care about it before. This is what I think is whats happening between people and the squats.
Of course, I could be dead wrong and going round the bend, if you get my jist .

EDIT: Damn, Ninja'd .

Clthomps wrote:Most people that like squats now were not old enough to buy them when they were on the shelf.

The reason they want them is because they can't have them, its a basic human response.


Also collecting Squats, Genestealer Cult, or even Dark Eldar , gives you an appearance of 40k maturity or some sort of geek status symbol.

I disagree. I didn't get Dark Eldar so that people would think I was mature or a geek, I got them because I wanted a challenging and unforgiving army - I wanted to be an underdog army.

Whether or not you chose it for that reason, you are now in that role.

Take your army to a large tournament and see how you are treated. As long as your not in your teens or younger, I guarantee that if a ruling question comes up people are more likely to ask you for the answer than say the space marine player you are playing against.

I like Squats because when I played GW stuff "back in the day" before my 14-15 year absence, I had a Squat army in Epic - in fact, it was my main army epic, unless you count the unpainted units of space marines I had from owning too many versions of the game.

I had 2 Colossi (Squat Leviathans)
2 Full Land Trains
3 Overlords
Lots of Gyrocoptors
Goliath Cannon???
More I cannot remember
Masses of plastic squats

...because we don't see em anymore, and they were cool!

Clthomps wrote:Whether or not you chose it for that reason, you are now in that role.

Take your army to a large tournament and see how you are treated. As long as your not in your teens or younger, I guarantee that if a ruling question comes up people are more likely to ask you for the answer than say the space marine player you are playing against.

Interesting stereotype. I haven't had a chance to bring my Dark Eldar to anything yet really so I can't comment on it. I generally find myself to be more knowledgeable about the rules than the folks around me though, so nothing new there.

@Dodiez: I don't think it's as true with Dark Eldar. They're more along the lines of Blood Angels and (old) Space Wolves. Armies that were used, but not mainstream.

Genestealer Cults and Squats are armies I have never seen played with, and if you're die hard enough to go through the trouble of collecting them, you get (and deseve) the geek status.

As it is, Dark Eldar are still mainstream enough.

I think of them as a precious relic from a time when everything in 40K wasn't coated in five layers of grimdark with half a dozen skulls for decoration. Squats do turn up in the fluff (like Grimm in the Inquisitor trilogy, and ratlings), and I think that they have a decent role in it. They do make sense. If they were distanced a little more from space dwarves(so knock off the whole grudge thing, and make them all clean shaven), they would work.

Not only that, but it can be fun to play with older models that many people won't have seen. I saw a Squat army at the third GT that looked great and was full of character.

Personally, I don't like squats, but then again I've never been a fan of exercise in any form...

oh wait wrong squats...


I think now its the can't have theory, I could have bought squats when I started 40k, but being 11 I was happy with orks and wish I had bought some. Having read some of the rules and such about the squats I'd like to see them back as they seem a very fun and characterful army to use and collect/paint.

It's become a running gag. There were a lot of players that were bummed out when their army stopped being supported, and would cry out to bring the Squats back. Other people echoed the call as a joke or to fit in with the older players. It's been a good 12 years since 3rd edition killed off the Squats, and it's just a long running joke now. I'd be surprised if one in 10 of the people who say they want Squats back would actually buy any.

I, on the other hand, am an avid collector of old models. I'd want them just because they're rare, funny looking, and kind of cool.

I disagree. I didn't get Dark Eldar so that people would think I was mature or a geek, I got them because I wanted a challenging and unforgiving army - I wanted to be an underdog army.

In the good old days Dark Eldar were a top tier army...Oh look I moved over 6 inches all hits are glancing

So let me get this straight,

Space Elves= good idea

Space Dark Elves= good idea

Space Orcs= good idea

Space Hobbits= good idea

Space Ogres= good idea

Space Dwarves= silly idea

Would you mind explaining why you think the first five 'fantasy' races are ok in 40k but the last one isn't? Please don't say they are 'to fantasy with their grudge bearing' as all the above races have some of their fantasy elements brought over in to 40k.

Squats were a an alternative IG army when you just had a basic IG with no special rules for different types of IG armies. They then became an individual army in their own right with plenty of flavour which made them different to all other armies. Then after people spent out their cash building their armies they were just dumped by GW for no apparent reason.

The main reason I think Squats are still being brought up all the time is people keep moaning that their latest codex hasn't had an update for a couple of years (or longer for the DE) but at least they still have one they can use, where the Squat players have nothing still.

Plus we do bear a grudge!

Mick

Brother SRM wrote:It's become a running gag. There were a lot of players that were bummed out when their army stopped being supported, and would cry out to bring the Squats back. Other people echoed the call as a joke or to fit in with the older players. It's been a good 12 years since 3rd edition killed off the Squats, and it's just a long running joke now. I'd be surprised if one in 10 of the people who say they want Squats back would actually buy any.

I, on the other hand, am an avid collector of old models. I'd want them just because they're rare, funny looking, and kind of cool.

Put simply:
This.

The problem is, most of those same people who kept wasting questions at GD seminars with "Are squats coming back?" were old enough to actually purchase the army when it was out--but didn't.

It's a joke that should have died a decade ago.

Kanluwen- some of us don't see it as a joke. I bought the figures and had the army and then all of a sudden my army doesn't exist for 40k anymore, that's not funny when you have to fork out a lot more money for another army to play a game you enjoy...
Mick

Well, you were one of the few who did buy an army then.

Despite the constant shouting of "BRING BACK THE SQUATS!" the sales sure didn't reflect it--even during their heyday.

I'd be just as happy with some of the other older models from the older generations, as would others, I imagine. The thing is that Squats have become representatives of their generation, because death has frozen them and made them unchanging, so while one might look at Orks and see them as a fully 5th ed army, they were originally a 2nd ed one too. However they are now 5th ed, so no one thinks of them as 2nd ed.

I always thought dwarves in space was a neat concept, it's original. I've considered making a squat themed IG army, and if I ever start them I'll probably buy some fantasy dwarves kitbash with em. I don't get why people who want squats don't just convert them and homebrew rules or use IG rules etc. Honestly though, if GW were to make a new army or bring an old one back, I'd want Hrud, (space skaven style).

Well they did seem as an interesting race when I looked them up, I do know instead of ratlings for my guard army I want to get some dwarfs with sniper rifles instead.

Like others say people seem to like squats because they cannot have them and age has given them a patina of mystery.

Squats in epic were okay they had massive cool weapons.
Squats in 40k were hopeless. I just don't think they would have transitioned well into 3rd ed and beyond.

To be fair people still moan about the fall of betamax and such things as well, get over it, convert some dwarves and just imagine they can actually move over 3" as stand in IG.

Kanluwen wrote:Well, you were one of the few who did buy an army then.

Despite the constant shouting of "BRING BACK THE SQUATS!" the sales sure didn't reflect it--even during their heyday.

I think the big problem was they went from an alternative IG army to something totally their own that frightened off a lot of original IG Squat players. I know I thought twice about doing my army...
Mick

Well I think space dwarfs could work, its just how its implemented to say something can't work in science fiction or fantasy is pretty much saying that nothing that we are reading about could happen.

The current Orks look nothing like 2nd Edition orks, Squats done again now would be different to the past. In fact it's a shame they've never done anything with the Demiurg apart from a few ships in Battlefleet Gothic.

Squats had issues in that they never had any vehicles and other essentials. The Orks were in that mess for several years, when GW stopped making the Battlewagon the Orks were left with nothing other than bikes. It took many years until Gorkamorka was released before Trukks and Traks made it back into the 40K game and only recently has a new Battlewagon been made. Squats in Epic had loads of vehicles and heavy support, in the main game they had bikes and trikes and that was it. Who is to blame for that apart from GW?

Squats are fun and very much part of the era they came from, maybe wanting squats back is part of desiring the goofy fun that was in the game then. People don't appreciate the goofyness any more it's all too serious, just look at the fanboy foaming at the mouth when someone dares to do something like female Space Marines or something else not sanctioned by GW fluff.

For all of you saying squat fans didn't buy any when they were out, where are you getting that from. I started in second edition, and I thought the fluff for the Squats was really cool (loved the idea of the inhospitable homeworlds, wierd advanced tech, and tenacious settlers). The models were pretty bad, but at the time so was everything so they didn't seem THAT bad. I ordered some from Mail Order (just some bikes) and decided to convert the rest out of Warhammer Dwarves. I had myself a small force, and then I found out they were never planning to make a squat codex. I was a bit annoyed at the time, because I had invested time and money in them, and now they weren't being supported. But I figured if they weren't popular they weren't popular and moved on.
So, I'd like to see some of the same themes done again in 40K- perhaps expanding the Demiurg, or something. I don't think there's anything wrong with the concept of tenacious miners in space, though I can agree the look they went with was pretty friggin' weak. But look at Orks from second edition, or Tyranids- equally goofy!
The bike focus never made sense to me either, since their planets were so inhospitable on the surface, but I liked the idea of land trains and burrowing machines.

So, honestly, I am an ex squat player who really did buy some, and really, honestly, does think they have a potential place in 40K, properly updated. I don't understand the squat hate at all. I hate elves in all their forms, pretty much, but I've never claimed that they shouldn't be part of 40K, because hey, someone likes them.

Da Boss wrote:For all of you saying squat fans didn't buy any when they were out, where are you getting that from.

It is indeed nonsense, as Jervis himself has said...

First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.

Squats sold, they just lost their way with trying to update them. Sounds a bit like Dark Eldar if you ask me, but that's a different debate.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060129002420/http://forums.specialist-games.com/epic/forum_b/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=2532&whichpage=3

Squats were fun and I would be for bringing them back. Their niche, though, might be hard to find, since they are kind of tinkerer/techies with big guns and toughness, probably falling into some blend of IG and SM, with just a hair of orky custom tech.