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I was wondering about it, which would you consider better?

How is the profile of 3e boyz? 9pts each, S3 without furious charge?

The old profile was:
cost 9 points instead of 6
get choppas (reduce enemy armor to 4+ maximum)
lose furious charge

I really can't see why you would want to use the old ones, but my friend is convinced that the old boyz were more powerful.

EDIT: also you used to be able to roll 2d6 when you assaulted and try to get under your squad size, in order to double your initiative.

I believe the rule to "Check Size" didn't double your Leadership.
You made the "size check" if you failed a Break test and if you made it, you counted as having made the Break test.

Woops, important typo, yeah that is supposed to be double initiative.

Oh yeah, that's right.

When they charged they doubled their I, if they made a succesfull Size Check.

Didn't they also have the ability to regroup by joining up with other mobs or something? I didn't actually play at all during 3rd (though I owned the rulebook, funnily enough).

Maybe a reason someone would say they were better, is that he's thinking of them in a 3rd/4th perspective, meaning they could sweeping advance and they didn't take massive casaulties when losing combat due to being fearless?

Yep. If their fall back move brought them in contact with another mob they took a Leadership test to join them.

Back then it was always good to keep a smallish squad or two behind the main drive to "catch" the broken mobs.

They were better at killing terminators, maybe. And getting to strike at the same time as marines when they charged meant something. So possibly a LITTLE bit better against marines. But 20 3 ed boyz Vs. 30 4 ed boyz for the same points probably evens that out.

The also had the "mob up" rule, which let mobs of orks that were falling back combine into one big mob. It was clunky, but it did give a mild advantage. But shoota boyz were pants back then, and sluggas were slow and expensive.
Any metric I can think, 4 ed boys are better.

Yeah, they had "mob up". However I can't see how initiative 4 and choppas beats out 50% more boyz per point, furious charge, and the Waaagh! rule for charging.

Yep. If their fall back move brought them in contact with another mob they took a Leadership test to join them.

Back then it was always good to keep a smallish squad or two behind the main drive to "catch" the broken mobs.

For what it's worth 4e boyz were better in 4e than they are now in many ways because they weren't vulnerable to getting wiped out by no retreat.

There were some perks to the 3rd edition boys that are no longer there.
* 'Mob Up' was great. By the end of the game, all your boys would be into one big blob squad in the center.
* Cyborks. Cheap T5 orks with a 5+ invlun save.
* Looted vehicles rocked. One Klan could take 3 of them!

Overall, I think the new orks are a bit more powerful, but we lost a few nice tricks.

You also had to remimber the big picture of 3e, you were able to consolidate into combat which means a smart player could prevent his poor boys from getting shot up next turn. I think that was the biggest loss for Orks, but wasn't really codex specific. Loss of the choppa rule wasn't really that bad, and mobing up was nice but not game breakingly so. The only real nerf to hit the boys was you used to be able to take a burna in a squad which gave you another PW, and the old burna rules were much better. However, overall I like the new boys because they are much cheaper.

As far as overall nerfs to the codex, the only one that made me cry was the zapp gun rolling to hit now...but other than that I much prefer the new codex to the old one.

I've played orks in both.

The Mob Up rules were great, making footslogging hordes difficult to stop. There were no "run" rules, though, so they moved VERY SLOWLY, making it more essential to save the bullet shield unit.

S3 was, and remains, dumb for orks. Drop the WS, raise the Strength, I say. But I digress. Without Furious Charge, it did make it tough to wound T4+, making Marines (being at least half the armies you faced) a little more annoying. The Choppa, though, did even that out a bit, by cutting their armor save to 4+ (same for Terminators). Stupidly, the choppa did NOTHING to armor that was already 4+, 5+, or 6+, as in 3rd Ed. they were TERRIFIED of plus/minus modifiers.

I had actually forgotten the "Check Size" rule, but that was fairly cool, and another way for huge mobs to rule.

Also, back then, you could "Sweeping Advance" into combat, so one big mob could literally go unit to unit in a massive green wave. Also, I believe the Line of Sight rules meant you could ONLY ever shoot the front bullet screen unit; you couldn't "see" any units behind them.

Also, in that edition, "Trukk Boyz" were a fast attack choice, I believe, unless you ran a Speed Freaks army, and they had a rule where they fell back towards their vehicle to regroup, not the table edge. Trukks could pop smoke (thus glancing hits only back then) and were more survivable.

Shootas were rapid fire garbage guns back then, so no one ever used shoota boyz. Tankbustas could be troops, though they didn't all have rokkits, and the Looted Tank rule was fabulous, allowing you to take ANY tank from any army list, just with a "Don't Press Dat!" rule attached. I had a Leman Russ Demolisher. Burnas also had 2d6 armor penetration against vehicles. Warbikers were truly "Fearless" and gave a 5+ (maybe 4+) cover save to anything behind them due to the oily smoke.

Overall, the old boyz had plenty of charm and were about the same in effectiveness. The 4th Ed. have a different charm, and some great "new" units in the current edition, the Lootas, for example, but I have to say I generally prefer the old.

Culler wrote:For what it's worth 4e boyz were better in 4e than they are now in many ways because they weren't vulnerable to getting wiped out by no retreat.

Ouch. Say that again? As if a 6 point ork hadn't already disturbed the balance of the world, I can only imagine what it would have been like when high end CC couldn't mop the floor with a unit of 30 boyz.

Sounds like a 6 month slice of heaven.

Carnuss wrote:

Culler wrote:For what it's worth 4e boyz were better in 4e than they are now in many ways because they weren't vulnerable to getting wiped out by no retreat.

Ouch. Say that again? As if a 6 point ork hadn't already disturbed the balance of the world, I can only imagine what it would have been like when high end CC couldn't mop the floor with a unit of 30 boyz.

Sounds like a 6 month slice of heaven.

Oh, it really was. Fielding nothing but an HQ and boyz mobs was a much deadlier proposition.

Yeah, in 3e the winning tactic was;

1. Field a Warboss with a retinue of Nobz, and 180 Boyz
2. Charge across the field waving your arms.
3. ???
4. Profit!

If you got into close combat, the enemy was dead meat. It was that simple. There was no unit in the game that could beat a mob of 30 Boyz charging into assault, particularly since the high-end assault units were generally the ones that got hurt the most by the choppa rules.

Oh, and Big Choppas (They were 'Uge Choppas back then) sucked enormously. So did Shootas. But I really wish we still had some of the old upgrades. Bionik arms that gave you an extra automatic S4 hit in assault, bionik bonces that increased your armour save, mega-stikkbombs, ahh the good old days. . .

I didn't play 40k before 5th edition was released....sounds like some fun stuff. =p

I wonder what 6th edition will be like, and a new ork codex?

All of this makes me want to find my old 3rd Ed codex for nostalgia's sake. By God, I will have flash gits worth taking!

Oh come on, that 3rd edition codex was TERRIBLE. I played with it for the entire time it was out and it had so few viable options it made me hate 40K. The new one is SO much better!

Oh, I remember Tankbustas.
They didn't all have Rokkits (can't remember how many), but they had the Tankhunters USR.

Shooting Land Speeders with str. 5 rapid fire Shootas + the Rokkits was a lot of fun.

Until someone fired at you with a couple of bolters and you died of course.

And remember how meganobs used to run to 50 points + ?

And you HAD to take a warboss?
And he couldn't have a bike?
And your troops had no transport options?
And battlewagons had lower armour and cost more?
And gretchin had lower ballistic skill?
And Killa Kans cost more too?
I remember that.

Boyz before toyz, friend. Ork Boyz were kings of close-combat in those days. Even Khorne Berzerkers were scared of Orks. And you could have 3 squads of 'Ard Boyz, or entire squads of Skarboyz which were all S4, and Warbikers were fearless and amazing.

Indeed, the orks were all about the green horde back then. Lots of the new shiny toyz were largely useless back then.

As in, Orks had only one, limiting, monodimensional build.
I played orks for the ENTIRE 3rd and 4th editions, from BBB list to 3rd edition codex to 4th edition codex. After that long playing a boring, slugga boy horde that plays the same in every game and gets it's face smashed in by skimmers or mech in general, I was heartily sick of that codex.

Mobs of 30 boys with a nob came to around 300 points, and could quite easily be destroyed by shooting and counter assaulted to death by a competant player.

At least now you can run a horde that works okay, a shooty list that works okay, a kan list that is pretty good, a battlewagon list that is fairly tough, a biker list that can do well, and a trukk list that is at least fun. Back in 3rd, you had to play really samey lists to have a chance, and that really bugged me. I like boyz, but toyz are fun too!

Agreed. I enjoy that orks now have more viable and fun builds. I ran speed freeks a lot back then. They weren't as tough as the horde, but faster and more fun. My only complaint about orks is that they are: a) still S3, when S4 fits their fluff better; and b) such specialists that it's hard to make a flexible, fun list that has several different elements (speed, assault, shoot) and not get hammered hard. But c'est la vie.