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There's a subspecies of character running through the Codex list. They tend to lead entire factions. They tend to cost between 200 and 300 points. They are monstrous fighters, capable of vanquishing entire enemy units and enduring the fiercest bombardment.

But who's the toughest? Who's the best of the best?

Some ground rules:

Got to be immune to instant death
Got to be able to join squads and embark in transports (MC types will have their own tourney some other time)
Got to be able to kill a Landraider, given sufficient time

With that said, let's meet our contestants:

Team Imperium:
Logan Grimnar
Darnath Lysander
Marneus Calgar

Team Chaos:
Abaddon
Skulltaker on Juggernaught

Team Ghazkull:
Ghazkull Thrakka

Let's meet our contestants:

First up, we've got the new kid on the block.

Logan Grimnar, ladies and gents, is a fairly typical specimen of this magnificent tournament. Not all that much stands out about him, but the Great Wolf comes with some strong recommendations. He's currently considered a member of the pack, sitting at 10-1.

Greatest Weakness: Only 3 wounds, which is low for this tourney
Greatest Strength: Can give himself preferred enemy to increase his offensive capacity

Next up, a stalwart of the Imperium, the hero of the Imperial Fists, Darnath Lysander! He's vowed to eliminate the Iron Warriors, and establishing himself as the pound for pound toughest in the galaxy would be a great start. He, too, is considered a 10-1 shot.

Greatest Weakness: Low # of attacks, no shooting attack
Greatest Strength: 3+ is the best consistent invul save in the tourney

Lastly, the captain of Team Imperium, the greatest hero of that galaxy spanning realm, Marneus Calgar. The Chapter Master of the Ultramarines exemplifies every strength of Team Imperium, and is currently considered a favorite at 5-1.

Greatest Weakness: None notable
Greatest Strength: Best shooting attack in the tourney, excellent offense due to master craft + reroll to wound

In an enormous switch, we now head to the first member of Team Chaos. The Skulltaker is rumored to be the greatest combatant in the Warp, his dripping blade reserved for champions such as he faces today. Mounted on his jugger he rises to the required competency for this prestigious event. Nonetheless, he remains a distant long shot at 15-1.

Weaknesses: No shooting attack, worst saves in the tourney, low wounds
Strengths: highest ws in the tourney, strikes at initiative

Team Chaos's other representative needs no introduction. Abaddon the Despoiler, Bane of the imperium and Warmaster of the 13th Black Crusade, is always popular with the fans. Make no mistake, if he could just keep control of his weapon, he'd be the odds on favorite. As it is, he's still getting 5-1, an odds on favorite.

Weaknesses: Daemon Weapon wounds him and denies him attacks on a roll of 1
Strengths: High weapon skill, strikes at initiative, greatest # of attacks if Daemon weapon cooperates, rerolls to wound

Lastly we have the tourneys only Ork, the Beast of Armagaeddon, the Prophet of the Waaargh, Ghazkull Mog Urak Thrakka! Many are the titles to be laid at his feet, but the most important one is this. He's the returning champion! He's taking 3-1.

Weaknesses: After his Waaagh completes he's only got a 5+ invul.
Strengths: During his Waaagh he's got a 2+ invul save, the best in the tourney. He has 7 attacks on the first round

Tourney rules:

Initial round: Both combatants shall fire their missile weapons at one another.
Second round: Both combatants shall receive the charge bonus as they enter assault
Tertiary round and successive rounds: The combat shall continue until one contestant perishes or breaks. If both die at the same initiative step the match will be a draw.

The matches shall be conducted Round Robin style, with each participant fighting each other contestant. If two or more contestants have identical results, those contestants shall fight another Round Robin tourney among themselves until an uncontested winner emerges.

The tourney will take place tonight or tomorrow night.

Woo! Go Ghazkghkull!

However, given a large enough space, Calgar would probably win through virtue of running away and killing his enemies slowly with ap 2. That not being the case, my favorite big green dude stands a very good chance of killing his foes round 2 of each combat without suffering overmuch in return thanks to the 2+ invuln provided he takes it first round of melee and not in the shooting.

Also, FYI, ghazghkull's save lasts all of the turn it's declared and the turn after as well, giving Ghaz 2 turns of assault with a 2+ invuln (the Ork player's turn and their opponent's turn.) Unless you're doing something funny with turn order, that is.

In an eternal warrior tourney it wouldn't be Skulltaker on chariot. It would be Skarbrand/ Fateweaver. Tyranids I'm not sure on as I haven't seen their new codex yet (freind has already got it via pre-order).

@Culler: One round of Waaagh is a compromise, between 0 and 2, each of which might be the case when they meet in a normal battle.

@O'shovah: Skarbrand and Fateweaver, or Skulltaker on a chariot for that matter, go in the MC tourney. This one is just for folks who can join units or ride in vehicles.

What about Aun'va?

Honestly, I think Abaddon has this won hands down, he is my greatest fear >.<.

Though if an archon could be in it, I think it would win, heh 2++ save.

50 big ones on Abaddon.

In something like this I like Marneus for his flexibility. He has a good shooing attack for the opening round. Also has the choice to use the orbital bombardment (it probably wont hit but he can use it.)
In CC he can toss out a bunch of power fist attacks or pull out his power weapon and make use of his high initiative. Since he can reroll all to wound rolls it could make up for the loss of strength on those attacks.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
Though if an archon could be in it, I think it would win, heh 2++ save.

Yea that shadowfield can be pretty nasty. Makes me wish Celestine could be in it as well, she isn't great the idea that she might repeatedly return makes me laugh.

I've done Ghazghkull vs. Abby several times, and Ghazghkull comes out on top with the Waaaugh!

If you math-hammer it out (rounding stuff up in the first round, down on the second round for fairness) with them both on the charge and Ghazghkull on the Waaaugh!

Abaddon swings first: 4 attacks base, 3 attacks bonus, +1 on the charge: 8 attacks total. 3+ to hit = 4 hits. 2+ to wound(re-rollable) and Ghazghkull takes four wounds (rounded up). Ghazghkull rolls four 2+ invulnerable saves and saves 3.33 (rounded up) to four, fails none (we'll round down next time)

Ghazghkull swings second: 5 attacks base, +2 on the charge: 7 attacks total. 4+ to hit = 3.5 hits...rounding up to 4 (we'll round down next time to make it even). 2+ to wound = 4 wounds, Abaddon makes four 4+ invulnerable saves and fails two.

Round two: Abaddon swings first: 4 attacks base, 3 attacks bonus: 7 attacks total. 3+ to hit = 3.5 hits. Three hits needing 2+ to wound(rerollable) and Ghazghkull takes three. Rounding down this time, Ghazghkull fails one.

Ghazghkull swings back, 5 attacks base: 4+ to hit = 2.5 hits. Rounding down to 2 hits needing 2+ to wound = 2 wounds...Abbadon fails one.

Round three: Waaaugh! is gone and Ghazghkull is less scary now.

The short version: Ghazghkull would mathematically take 2-3 wounds in total for going head-to-head with Abaddon, but would kill Abaddon. Obviously luck and dice rolls can skew it either way.

What about a seriously tricked out Cannoness? She can get quasi Eternal Warrior through upgrades, inferno pistol will drop a Land Raider, and Faith + Sacred Weapon means she can actually drop a pretty ferocious beatdown while being fairly durable.

As is, Abaddon is who I'd put money on. Going at I6 means he can drop the Power Fisters before they swing (in subsequent turns of combat) and the +d6 attacks will outweigh the offchance that he does happen to roll a one.

Meh, with Abaddon's daemon weapon it's really hard to simply say who wins in math hammer. Personally my brother and I have rolled out the combat for Ghazghkull vs. Abaddon 6 times. Assuming Ghazghkull got the charge every time and the WAAAGH! 5 of the times. Ghazghkull lost every single time, at best dealing 3 wounds. Fortunately, whoever would win by themselves, Ghazghkull is capable of taking the better squad along with him.

Shame Yarrick Isn't there, with his new stand back up rule, he'd be one tough cookie to to drop.

But that being the case I got 30 on Gaz and 30 on Abbadon.

There is always the chance Abbadon will poke himself in the eye so that right there takes him out of the running. Would you bet money on him with that possibility? He also takes an auto wound in the process when rolling a one for his daemon weapon. If it weren't for that then he would be the best choice.

I think Lysander is the best all around choice, his Achilles heel is the low number of attacks. The Skulltaker on a juggernaught is the best value for the points and he can own any HQ that does not have Eternal Warrior which eliminates all possible choices from the new Nid codex. Of course all HQ presented here have EW so Skulltaker is not the best choice for this survey but outside of this he is the king.

G

My money is on Lysander, he has kicked in the faces of more nobz and berzerkers than I can count. If he's lucky, his stormshield will keep him from biting it against most of these guys. Sure, a stormshield isn't anything to rely on, but neither is Abbadon's daemon weapon.

GHAZGHKULL MAG URUK THRAKAAAAAAAAAAA!

*ahem* Sorry. Yeah, Ghazghkull all the way. He is guaranteed two rounds of Waagh!, because Ghazghkull's Waagh! can be declared any time he wants, and with that lovely 2+ Inv. to add to a total of 12 WS5 S10 PK attacks over those two rounds, he kicks ass. In fact, to do this tourney realistically, he should get the 2+ Inv. during the 3 first rounds, because round 1 is the Shooting phase. . .

His shooting is nothing to brag about, but his close-combat asskicking ability more than makes up for it.

umm Commander farsight dances out of assault range of all of them filling them full of plasma until they fall over

What about Celestine and Yarrik. Doesn't coming back, and back, and back, and back give you some decent power?

Yea, the choices are odd. Skulltaker on a Juggernaught? Why not just by himself?

EDIT:

Plus, Asurmen and Yarrick should be included.

If you're going to add Skulltaker why not add Fateweaver, Skarbrand, and Ku'Grath?

Folks asking why he's left out certain HQs....the OP post explains why he did so, and what requirements were to be in that list.

Could you take a different HQ that would do one round of shooting the one round of close combat (and subsequent rounds of close combat) that would do better? Probably. If you didn't have those artificial constraints, I would put my money 100% of the time on a Shas'o with a plasma gun and a fusion blaster, and I would move JSJ every turn and never end up in close combat.

Most of them can't take out a landraider.

G

I realize that it's 40ke's game and he can set any rules that he wants, but those entry requirements are going to have an impact on who is deemed champion.

The Landraider requirement basically denies entry to any number of characters who are good at combat with infantry, but don't have a powerfist. The Eternal Warrior restriction is there, I think, to prevent powerfist characters from rocking non-eternal characters, but it also removes several heavy hitters who have other survivability traits (like celestine, with her 2+ inv save and 'come back from the dead repeatedly' trick.) It also drastically reduces the effectiveness of Skulltaker, who's biggest plus is that he can instant-kill nearly anything - except the handful of characters in this event. Why even include him at this point?

Well, it was a fascinating battle.

To answer some questions before I start, certain folks were excluded because they aren't the same sort of guy as the contestants. Celestine, Yarrick, the kitted Necron Lord. These guys are invulnerable in their own way...but don't really fill the same role as these guys.

Eternal Warrior is there because to be used like these guys you need to be able to be thrown heedlessly into units with fists. Land Raider popping ability is there so you don't need to fear walkers and can get folks out of Land Raiders. Skulltaker doesn't quite fit, but he technically meets the requirements, and I needed a dark horse.

Nuff Jibba Jabba. Time to tell you how it went down.

First match, Logan vs. Lysander:

Logan's stormbolter made no impression, but his preferred enemy wolf axe did quite a bit better. It took 5 rounds of combat, but ultimately they beat each other to death. Draw.

Logan matched off with Calgar, but took a wound from the Gauntlet's storm bolter and got popped on the second round of combat. Calgar wins.

Logan missed Skulltaker with his storm bolter, then got aced in one round by the charging fiend. He never even swung his axe.

Logan got worse against Abaddon, who killed him without ceremony, rolling a 2 on his Daemon weapon, but hitting with every attack.

The Great Wolf rallied when up against Ghaz, at least, and his wolf belt invul save was crazy amazing. He put down the Beast of Armaggaedon on the 4th round, but died himself at the same instant.

Final score for logan: 0 wins

Lysander:

Lysander took on Calgar in an exciting back and forth match, but ultimately the greater number of attacks prevailed over the greater save, and Calgar laid him low.

Against the Daemon Lysander quickly proved his power, simply overwhelming him on the third round with a barrage of thunder hammer attacks. Lysander wins.

Abaddon and Lysander hurt each other, but ultimately his initiative was enough to put Abaddon out in front. He put Lysander down with 3 wounds on himself, in a late round.

Lysander fell to Ghazkull's furious Waaagh. Simply got knocked down and trampled early, and couldn't really make it up, even once the Waaagh ended.

Lysander ended things with 1 win.

Calgar:

Calgar obliterated Skulltaker in high style. No trouble there, he actually did 2 wounds with his bolter.

Abaddon faltered, rolling a 1 for his Daemon weapon, but was ultimately able to pull out the battle with some inspired saves.

Ghazkull: Calgar tried as hard as he could, but the best he could manage against Ghaz's Waaagh was to do some wounds and endure. Ghaz pulled off a very nice last round to draw combat with the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines.

Calgar had 3 wins, best so far.

Skulltaker:

Abaddon failed his daemon weapon once again, but it didn't matter at all. Skulltaker couldn't begin to match the Despoilers offense. Abaddon prevailed handily.

Skulltaker got killed in the charge round by Ghaz, just obliterated.

Skulltaker had one win.

Abaddon and Ghazkull had an epic clash, but ultimately Abaddon's Daemon weapon had been storing up power for this. He rolled a 6 for the charge round, and did 2 wounds right through the Waaagh, then followed it up with 5 attacks in the next round to obliterate the Ork.

Abaddon had 5 wins.

Ghaz had 2 wins.

So, final score for the Tourney:

Abaddon takes it with an undefeated 5, Calgar following behind with 3, Lysander and Ghaz sit tied at 2, while Skulltaker drifts at 1 and Logan skulks at 0. Interesting stuff.

I'm thinking about another go, giving them a retinue, and of course a monstrous creature/other solo character tourney at some point.

I think including shooting attacks prior to assault skewed the results for Calgar versus the Skulltaker, the point of this exercise is to see who is the best in close combat after all.

G

Yeah, if a "duel" includes shooting, you really might as well award the prize to Random Tau Commander #0241.

don't forget about brother captain stern! STR 6 old school force weapon that ignores eternal warrior hmmm? granted I don't remember if he has eternal warrior or not.

Shrug. I felt like they should get some benefit for their shooting, so they got a round of it in. Seemed fair enough.

Hmmm...expected Calgar to do a little better.

As for some of the thoughts on other characters:

-you're right a Tau commander would have the best shooting, but the rules for this event specify a charge after 1 round and every other model involved has invul saves, is an EW, and can easily inflict ID on the tau commander, in some cases prior to him even swinging. He would just be a farm for characters to pad victories.

-For Celestine, because of the rules she's only rocking 3 faith points from herself and she loses D3 on her first death, so her invul save is going to be a 4+ in no time. Also back to the issue of everything here can inflict ID on celestine so the first failed 2+ means she getting cleaned off the pavement. As much fun as it would be for Lysander to play whack-a-mole with her corpse until she fails a Ld10 check, I don't see her winning any of these matchups.

-Yarrick is an EW so he belongs here a little more than celestine, but also has no invulnerable save. Against calgar and abbadon who can re-roll failed wounds his force field does nothin. He's also pretty light one wounds although he at least has a S6 weapon so he won't be sucking as bad against the T5 characters as Celestine. In general it would just be another and much shorter game of whack-a-mole as you wait for him to fail a 3+

-On Stern you're right on both counts. He has the old-school FW AND is not an eternal warrior. Also he only has a 5+ invul and 2 wounds. He would be the only character in the event that could be seen off with a bad round of shooting. He's also only packing 3A, so it wouldn't take epic numbers of invul saves for any character here to shrugg off his attacks and cave his head in. He'd be even more junior than skulltaker and the fight with abbadon would be a joke unless abbadon decided to handicap himself by rolling a 1.

-If we're going to include random characters we might as well throw in zogwort, all he needs is one psychic check and to win a roll-off and he beats anyone on the list. Of course he has no invul save (barely has armor), doesn't have a power weapon, and can be insta-gibbed, but stands just as much of a chance as half of the "these characters shoudl go in" suggestions.


I think the right array of characters was involved. Anything without EW would just be fodder for the characters to pad their victories. The results also seemed about right, although I would've expected Grimnar to have 1 and Skulltaker to have 0.

40kenthusiast wrote:Shrug. I felt like they should get some benefit for their shooting, so they got a round of it in. Seemed fair enough.

hmmm... That might make WWE worth watching.

G

That was cool, and interesting. Obviously every combat is different thanks to the dice, but that made for a fun read.

Next time:

Pictures! That would have been a lot of fun.

Mastershake wrote:-you're right a Tau commander would have the best shooting, but the rules for this event specify a charge after 1 round and every other model involved has invul saves, is an EW, and can easily inflict ID on the tau commander, in some cases prior to him even swinging. He would just be a farm for characters to pad victories.

My point is that the rules used here are dumb.