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Hello,

I've been running a few assault cannons in my list, and I've been consistently impressed with how well they do. I'm curious how people think a list comprised of lots and lots of assault cannons would work, as well as other higher ROF weapons. Here's a sample list:

LR Crusader
Terminators with AC
5 Man Tactical Squad with TL AC Razorback
5 Man Tactical Squad with TL AC Razorback
5 Man Tactical Squad with TL AC Razorback
Speeder with HB / AC
Speeder with HB / AC
Dreadnought with AC
Librarian with Null Zone / Smite

This fits easily under 1500 points, with room to allow you to take a full tactical or two, and perhaps buy a pod for the dreadnought and Termie armor for the Libby. This has 4 twin linked Assault Cannons, 4 assault cannons, 2 heavy bolters, and 2 hurricane bolter sponsons, as well as smite (another high ROF weapon).

Thoughts?

andruin wrote:
Thoughts?

I would throw something, anything inside the land raider to dissuade mellee, besides that, looks good!

I agree, in addition to the assault cannon terminators, take some TH/SS terminators. You need something scarry inside that LRC.

Also, give all you tactical squads lascannons, so you have at least a few guns that can reach out and blast someone. (donkeycannon only has a 24" range, that's pretty short all things considered)

So... what do you do when you face off against AV14 platform spam, such as another marine army with Land Raiders of its own? Roll to hit, roll 6 followed by 3-4 for glance, 5-6 to pen... Not going to be pretty. Needs some multi-meltas and/or lascannons to pop heavy armor IMO.

malecus, if I recall, stastically assault cannons pen AV 14 better than lascannons.

dumplingman wrote:malecus, if I recall, stastically assault cannons pen AV 14 better than lascannons.

You do recall correctly (as long as your within 24" )

Assault cannons were really good in 4th edition, but now you need to take 10 termies to get 2 in a squad, and there are no terminator command squads, and rending got nerfed. They aren't necessarily bad, but you will have problems dealing with certain types of units. The AssCannon isn't a fix all.

Assuming same ballistic skill, a lascannon needs to roll a 5 to glance, or 6 to pen.

Assault Cannon needs a 6 to have a chance to do anything, and then a 3-4 to glance or 5-6 to pen.

The odds for a given AC shot doing anything are 1/3rd the chances of a lascannon shot, but you get 4 shots, so it looks like you have a 33% higher chance to score at least one glance or pen with the Assault Cannon than you do with the Las, but you have to be in range to fire to begin with. Against a player that sees the range differential, or on spearhead or dawn of war, you're going to be taking lascannon fire 1-2 turns before the assault cannons can open up. Makes a bit of a difference there.

But there's also at least a 1/3rd chance of a single lascannon shot just missing entirely (discounting twinlinked). If you miss every shot with your assault cannon.... Don't buy a lottery ticket.

I don't think the list is that scary at all really. You are really banking on your AC to carry the day but with only 15 Marines the chances of winning any game that involves Objectives is slim.

I'd expand this idea to taking weapons with high ROF instead.
This means you can buy much cheaper TL HB Razorbacks
Maybe a Dakka Predator or TFC as a Heavy
Some combination of Tac Terminators with AC or Dreads with AC or 2x TL Autocannons
Upgrade your Tacticals, make them worthwhile

with only 15 Marines the chances of winning any game that involves Objectives is slim.

True, but if you reserve the marines and have one squad in a razorback, you have decent odds.

This list would have been awesome in 4th ed, but I think it would be good now, just not spectacular as a shooty army would waste you before you got anywhere near them.

+1 on the TH/SS termies in your LRC. You need a powerhouse unit, and they can deliver.

The 24" range on the AC is the only drawback. With your vehicles, you can move them 6" and fire their AC, you have a 30" area of influence. On a 4' * 6' board, that's a decent amount, but not the entire board.

Make sure your LRC has a MM.

Reecius wrote:

with only 15 Marines the chances of winning any game that involves Objectives is slim.

True, but if you reserve the marines and have one squad in a razorback, you have decent odds.

Maybe, I know that I run 40 Marines in 1500 games so I have nearly 4x the amount of scoring bodies as this list would have and while the AC is killy, its also short range meaning you're going to have to wait until turn 2 to get a shot off for most of your army.

You really spend half your points on troops? Maybe I just approach my listbuilding differently... How does that work for you?

Maybe, I know that I run 40 Marines in 1500 games

Oh I agree for sure, more scoring units is awesome, it just sucks for some armies when their troops are not where the power is. Orks have it good, I tell yeah.

My only point was that having few scoring units is not as big of a detriment as some people think. You just have a lot less room for error.

I would rather have a lascannon or Stronos-pattern (las/plas) Razorback than an assault cannon one.

andruin wrote:You really spend half your points on troops? Maybe I just approach my listbuilding differently... How does that work for you?

I play Chaos so I have more flexibility in spamming my troops. Still I would consider 2x 10 Tacticals to be the absolute minimum for Loyalists at 1.5k. 3 full size squads is much safer.

Fetterkey wrote:I would rather have a lascannon or Stronos-pattern (las/plas) Razorback than an assault cannon one.

For my money, any Razorback that isn't TL HB is too expensive. Dreads/Predators/Speeders are all better sources of expensive dakka to me.

As Loyalist Marines, I spend 960 points on Troops in a 2,000 point army and consider this somewhat light.

I spend 890 points on troops at 1500...then again I go with an all biker list...points hogs they are.

For chaos...965 points on troops at 1675...agreed with minigun762 that CSM function well with hvy in troops.

Tactical squads are support squads that needs support, spamming them can lead to some unbalance in terms of performance.

As for the OT, I'd rather get 'other stuff' with points saved as Razorbacks with TLHBs are so good already.

3 tac squads will let you claim a total of 3 objectives.
1/3 of the time it wont matter as your playing VPs
1/3 of the time there are only 2 objectives and one will be on your side
1/3 of the time there will be multiple objectives, and at least 1 will be near your side.

Your 3 tactical squads are all offensive based, and keeping one squad back to hold an objective limits its effectiveness.
I would field a squad of scouts with snipers to hold objectives near your board edge. That plus 3 tactical squads on the offensive should be more than enough to handle your objective needs.

@labmouse42:

It's officially KPs, while VPs are optional.
While I would still use Tacticals for reliable claiming... Scouts' weaknesses to certain weapons is just so glaring they are not consistant at that job.

I suspect Black Templars currently do assault cannon spam better than most armies -- you can get up to 9 in Fast Attack slots (AC/HB speeders for 80 pts each) and 6 in Elite (5-man termie squads each with 2 x AC). Deep Strike the termies and speeders, and add in a few cheap drop-podding 5-man troop squads each with a meltagun for the REALLY heavy armour, and you're away...

I would field a squad of scouts with snipers to hold objectives near your board edge.

So true, I almost always take one for just this purpose.

And Ian is right, Templars can spam Ass Can's better than anyone else at the time.

TL-assault cannon razorbacks with minimal tac squads in are expensive.. combine them with Scout troops with sniper rifles, as this allows you to retain rending shots (@ lower effective strength) quite cheaply?

If ACs are the only thing you want to build that army around go get some Black Templars. AC spam 1750 example:

Emperor's champion anti-psyker vow 110 (gives you extra movement pregame for most enemy armies)
3x5 Terminators /w 2 ACsm Tank hunters 765 (255 each)
2x5 Tacticals /w Land Raider Crusader 690 (345 each)
2x 1 Land Speeder Tornado /w HB and AC 160 (80 each)

1725 alltogether -> 25 points spare

You could also drop some termis or tacticals for more speeders->ACs but I used them just to fill up points since they're more fragile than anything else. Having the troops in Land raiders makes them survive quite well, bt crusaders include extra armour and MM without extra cost and the termies are tank hunters which should shut down the lascannon discussion Only pain is the low troop count for objective missions and the fact that even Land raiders get destroyed sometimes but imo they're far inferior to 3 troops in Razorbacks

Or maybe you go deathwing and slam 30 termis with 6 ACs and 24 dual lightning claws in their face at 1600

You can keep the Tac Marines in Razorbacks as long as the rest of your list is sufficiently threatening that they will receive little fire. Basically, you can go cheap on troops as long as you max out your offensive capabilities. This means TH/SS Terminators and MM/HF Speeders.

The all AC list is kinda iffy. You might get a lucky shot in here and there, but it's really not worth the points. Regular Terminators are definitely not worth it, if your main goal is taking that one AC in the squad.

The problem with assault cannons is that they are too expensive to effectively spam. I think they make great versatile weapons, but are poor when spammed.

My list is similar to what you are describing, but abandoning the spamming idea for better overall efficiency.

HQ
Librarian Termi armr +SS (avenger, nullzone) 140

Troops
Tactical Squad x10 pf/ML/flamer/rhino 230
Tactical Squad x10 pf/ML/flamer/rhino 230
Tactical Squad x5 pw+mb/ Razorback TL Assault Cannon 185
Tactical Squad x5 pw+mb/ Razorback TL Assault Cannon 185

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad x5 4x TH+SS /1x Lcs with LRC and EA+MM 475
Dreadnought MM+ HF 115
Dreadnought MM+ HF 115

Fast
Landspeederx2 Multimelta + Heavy flamer 140
Landspeederx2 Typhoon + Heavy bolter 180

1995

Basically the idea is a spearhead, with the rhinos and typhoons providing backfield to your dreads/tornadoes/LRC/razorbacks. Combination of ML for long range, assault cannons for mid and MM/HF for close range allows you to present threats as your approach to assault with your terminators supported by the 2 tactical squads and dreads.