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The fluff of the orks is that they are much larger than a normal man (if they stood upright) and can crush a man's skull with his bare hands. Does this sound like S3? My view of ork warfare is that they have savage, wild strength and innate, but unrefined combat ability. Thus, I think their base stat line should be S4, but WS3. A skilled fighter should be able to handle them, skill-wise, but they should have no problem dishing out damage when they hit. If this changed, I would revised their "Furious Charge" rule to be +1 WS, +1 Init (or perhaps +2 Init [and no WS bonus], similar to their old "Check Size" rule), instead of +1 S, +1 Init. This change would not affect the charge at all (well, the Initiative bonus might), but would give them more staying power in subsequent rounds, which is something they lack and shouldn't, IMO. Further, it would be more accurate to their depiction as "brutes" who make up for their lack of agility with strength and toughness.

Also, their "Mob Rule" should count WOUNDS, not models. A nob unit shouldn't get scared when their are five or six or them since they are at least twice as tough as a normal boy. This wouldn't affect normal boyz at all, just the nob/flash git/meganob units which are supposed to be elite and not scaredy cats.

Thoughts? Agree or disagree?

I agree about the Mob Rule, and your modification of the statline makes sense, but I don't like the idea of changing FUrious Charge, for the simple reason that it makes the game a little more complex. In addition, your justification for the statline change is based on fluff; what's the fluff justification for Orks getting a WS bonus, of all things, when they charge?

The problem is, of course, that if you made this change and kept Furious Charge as-is, you'd have S5 basic Boyz on the charge, which just a little tiny bit overpowered. At the very least, you'd need to raise the points cost.

Sounds good. Remove Furious charge. Nerf Shootas. Increase the points cost of an Ork boy to 7 points.


(Oh, and no trying to change Furious charge to make it +1 WS or any of that crap. Ork boys are already too good.)

BeRzErKeR wrote:I agree about the Mob Rule, and your modification of the statline makes sense, but I don't like the idea of changing FUrious Charge, for the simple reason that it makes the game a little more complex. In addition, your justification for the statline change is based on fluff; what's the fluff justification for Orks getting a WS bonus, of all things, when they charge?

Agreed. Though I would just give boyz strength 4 and take away furious charge completely from them so that IG still hit first. Nobs/warbosses/weirdboyz/meks would retain furious charge, making them strength 5 on the charge and reflecting that they're in that way 'bigger and meaner than smaller, runtier Orks.' Basing mob rule off of wounds would help nobs a ton too, and should be something they have, though IMO since they get such a boost from it then their cost should increase slightly (though I would gladly pay it.) 2 or 3 points per nob would do.

I'm fine with ditching Furious Charge rather than tweaking it. My thought on the tweak was that the "fury" of the charge be represented by a surge of energy resulting in striking faster (higher Init) and more hits (higher WS). But I'm fine with ditching it altogether.

Even at S4, they'll still die in droves due to bad armor and low Init, but when they hit, they will hit hard and continue to hit hard. That, to me, is the ork way.

Whether boyz need to be 7 points or remain at 6, well, that's more a by-product of GW trying to sell more models than actual game balance. Given that they are losing slightly less than they gain, IMO, I would be fine with 7 points each. Still a great value, and about right. Two S4 ork boyz would be worth about 1 standard marine.

For Nobz and Warbosses, to keep the hierarchy going, I would say Nobz could be S5, T4, WS4 (increase points cost to 25, or +15 for upgrade), and Warboss would be S6, T5, WS5 and increase cost to 65 or 70. Everything else the same. I don't think you should add Furious Charge; just keep things simple. If Nobz are too good at S5 for 25 points, just don't allow as many units of them to be taken in the force chart.

Boyz are fine as is IMO

Furious charge represents having momentum(str bonus) and higher speed(inititive bonus) behind your assault, its fine. besides it is a universal special rule so you can't really do anything without changing everything that has that rule as well

more hits on the charge already happen. thats the little rule that says you gain +1 attack when you charge. you arn't more skilled, but have a higher chance of hitting by way of swinging more often.

Orks are just tougher then da Umies, for once dat wittle fing called do Upwifting Prima is right in sumfing(figurativly speaking orks are the same strength as humans) only Nobs and Bosses are stronger.

I dont get it......

Grey Templar wrote:Boyz are fine as is IMO

Furious charge represents having momentum(str bonus) and higher speed(inititive bonus) behind your assault, its fine. besides it is a universal special rule so you can't really do anything without changing everything that has that rule as well

more hits on the charge already happen. thats the little rule that says you gain +1 attack when you charge. you arn't more skilled, but have a higher chance of hitting by way of swinging more often.

Orks are just tougher then da Umies, for once dat wittle fing called do Upwifting Prima is right in sumfing(figurativly speaking orks are the same strength as humans) only Nobs and Bosses are stronger.

But not well enough....Imho what the Ork Codex has become is a travesty....

The army died when Phil Kelly pathetic grubby mits on it. It will have to go through a NEAR COMPLETE overhaul to even slightly return the feel and style of the army.

-------------

On topic as far as a suggestion...

Removing the Choppa in its last configuration was justified. Never allowing anything but a 4+ save was nuts. HOWEVER, the loss of initiative 4 on the charge, the old double initiative, was perfect as it was. It represented the masses of weapons swinging through the cloud of green bodies and the slam of the bodies into the enemy as well.

To add insult to injury, clinging to the "no modified dice rolls" mantra they did away with the old Choppa, then in 5th edition they turned around and re-implemented "modified" dice rolls as far as the Glance and Penetration chart goes. What a slap in the face...

Give us back our old Waaagh! that had a chance of failing and take your crummy, crappy, over used, generic, pathetic excuse for a skill, also known as Furious Charge. Also, give us back our choppa and this time have it modify all armor saves by -1, since you apparently can't follow your own justifications...

Sorry...as you can see I am a bit bitter towards the 'dex :(

I like them as is. Increasing the points cost makes me take less elite choices in small games.

IMO The WS: 4 I: 2 A: 2 represents the Orks aggression fine. I says that he is unskilled but lays down so many strikes that even the best trained individuals will eventually get hit, maybe not before the Ork dies but that works with the Ork mentality "There's always more boyz".

The -1 armor save looks a good on an individual basis but in a Mob of just 10 Slugga's you get 20 attacks add to that the probability that you're initiating cc +1 Attack + Furious charge and you have hands down the best assault troops in WH40K. What differance does it make if I have to roll a 5+ or a 6 to save when I have 11 wounds on a squad of 10 models.

an ork boy is stronger than the average human by several times .... but on a 1-10 statline you only get so much leeway so for game balance they nerf ork boyz =/

S3 is totally appropriate to the fluff. On Ork has 2 attacks is he quicker than an Eldar or Marine? No he just attacks wildly with both hands. Hence he's as strong with each arm as a guardsmen is putting his entire body weight behind a bayonette, that sounds about spot on fluff wise.

Statlines need to work in concert. If you raised the Ork strength to 4, he would of course have to lose Furious Charge as a result or he would be overpowered. But if you consider the ork fighting style, a brawling, brutal style of oversized choppas, it's based on sheer strength, not skill. Thus, S4, WS3 makes much more sense, especially in light of the fluff about basic ork boy strength and how they get stronger, larger when in conflict. Also, WS3 represents a basic, trained soldier and orks get this just through natural talent. It's not as though they run through bootcamps unless the fluff says so, like Stormboyz. Given they already have significant disadvantages in Initiative (almost always striking last) and armor (virtually no save) and no armor save modifiers/eliminators other than power klaws, S4 makes more sense. You should not want to get into a prolonged battle with orks, but the RAW basically mean that if you survive the initial wave, you increase your chances of winning.

As far as the cost increase goes, I'd be fine with another point or so. It won't affect your bottom line much. If you're running a mechanized list, you're talking 60-80 boyz and thus 60-80 points while doing their job a little better. Even a horde list of 180 boyz is 180 points more. Big deal. Frankly, troops SHOULD be the heart of most army lists and elites, etc. a little more rare, and I have no problem with troops being a little more competent than just cannon fodder.

Also, adjusting the WS and S means you could have more variations in the ork boy statlines. Those orks who are less melee inclined could remain at S3 (meks, painboyz, weirdboyz, maybe even shoota boyz, lootas, etc.), those orks that actually train as soldiers could have WS 4 (stormboyz, kommandos, etc.), and so on, instead of having the same basic ork thrown into 15 different roles.

I think it would be a good change. Instead of furious charge how about something like 'charge of muscle' that makes them reduce armour by 1 for the first turn or +2 Initiative?

Eldar Own wrote:I think it would be a good change. Instead of furious charge how about something like 'charge of muscle' that makes them reduce armour by 1 for the first turn or +2 Initiative?

I'm fine without any such change if they gave me S4. They could also just make the "Waaaaagh" better by increasing initiative or something to do the same thing, but make it more tactical in its use (one per game, make the most of it).

LeperMessiah wrote: They could also just make the "Waaaaagh" better by increasing initiative or something to do the same thing, but make it more tactical in its use (one per game, make the most of it).

What about all units automatical move 6" for thier run movement rather than D6".

An auto 6" would be great for the Eldar and even the 'Nids but the Orks aren't fleet of foot, nor are they raging bezerkers like Khornes guys.

Is it the symmatry that throws you off? An Ork is NOT as strong as a Marine. Even if he is stronger then a human it is not a significant enough differance to warrent another point. I still maintain that the low initiative score is supposed to represent the poor Weapon Skill without losing site of the fact that eventually the Ork WILL hit you.

I think Orks are falling into the same hole that the Eldar, Guard and SOB are in. That is you see everyone elses statlines and realise that your 'average' stat is actually BELOW the average for the game.

LeperMessiah wrote:Statlines need to work in concert. If you raised the Ork strength to 4, he would of course have to lose Furious Charge as a result or he would be overpowered. But if you consider the ork fighting style, a brawling, brutal style of oversized choppas, it's based on sheer strength, not skill. Thus, S4, WS3 makes much more sense, especially in light of the fluff about basic ork boy strength and how they get stronger, larger when in conflict. Also, WS3 represents a basic, trained soldier and orks get this just through natural talent. It's not as though they run through bootcamps unless the fluff says so, like Stormboyz. Given they already have significant disadvantages in Initiative (almost always striking last) and armor (virtually no save) and no armor save modifiers/eliminators other than power klaws, S4 makes more sense. You should not want to get into a prolonged battle with orks, but the RAW basically mean that if you survive the initial wave, you increase your chances of winning.

While this seems to be a decent replacement for the conundrum it creates a second one.

The only armor an Ork has is his WS + T. To shooting it is merely his toughness; however, in close combat, a place where the current Ork codex lost a tremendous amount of killing power due to the new cover/initiative and Waaagh!/Furious Charge fiasco, the basic Ork is already playing a losing game. Taking away their WS4 only manages to take away from the only REAL "armor save" Orks have. The 6+ armor save is just there for giggles apparently.

Seriously, do the math and then think of how it will reflect the overall game versus the armies that already trounce us in CC. It will only exacerbate the issues against those armies and, in doing so, only make the Orks even harder to do anything with on the table top.

eh, just wait for the new codex. With the way things are going in 5th ed, Boyz will be 3 points each and have 3-4 USR

Edit: What's that new one rumored for blood angels, the furious charge version that if you win combat, furious charge persists for the next round? That has Ork written all over it

I completely agree with giving the boyz strength 4 and removing furious charge.

I completely agree with giving the boyz strength 4 and removing furious charge.

They'd also have to sacrifice their WS4 and their 2nd attack for this to make sense. Why would an Ork be as strong with 1 arm as a marine is with his whole body?

because orks are tough an green ... not pink and soft like dem weak oomans duh :p

Kej wrote:Seriously, do the math and then think of how it will reflect the overall game versus the armies that already trounce us in CC. It will only exacerbate the issues against those armies and, in doing so, only make the Orks even harder to do anything with on the table top.

Well, orks are going to be hit hard by those armies no matter what. I see your point, lowering WS increases hits taken and you lose more orks. But at least you can strike back harder, which hopefully offsets some of those casualties. What I reckon is that it makes combat bloodier rather than the tarpit it becomes with S3, WS4 orks. Whatever mathhammer example you want, I'm sure the basic result will be that the orks lose more guys, but those that remain deal more damage than the S3 versions, and I'm OK with that. Ork fights SHOULD be bloody encounters.

But whoever made the point about orks not being as strong as Marines, you are right, and therein lies the conundrum and probably the flaws of a game that has tried to keep statlines static over 5 generations of rules. Not sure what the solution is there, but GW sure won't do a "reboot" and redo stats across the board.

game that has tried to keep statlines static over 5 generations of rules.

You mean 3 not 5. In 2nd Ed a SM terminator had the following statline:

ws bs s t w i a ld
5 5 4 4 1 5 1 9

A Captain
7 7 5 5 3 7 3 10

Calgar
8 8 5 5 4 8 4 10

A Genestealer
7 0 6 4 1 7 4 10

An Ork
3 3 3 4 1 2 1 7
No furious assault rule existed. Yes BS3.

People saying Orks are as strong as humans are ignoring that they have 2 attacks. strength is not physical strength but your chances of doing damage with a blow. The Guardsman has only 1 attack representing him putting his whole body behind a bayonette lunge and Ork has 2 attacks representing him thrashing wildly with each arm hence the Ork is as strong in eahc arm as the Guardman is with his whole body. That is entirely in line with the fluff!

but GW sure won't do a "reboot" and redo stats across the board.

They did for 3rd Ed. They don't need to now and I can't see why they would. The Ork statline is good and represents the orks very well and makes them function on the battle field as they should.

FlingitNow wrote:They did for 3rd Ed. They don't need to now and I can't see why they would. The Ork statline is good and represents the orks very well and makes them function on the battle field as they should.

I am aware. I have every book on orks GW has published as well as the original Rogue Trader rules, etc. While we're at it, back then, Gretchin had the same statline as a guardsman, save leadership, so things have really changed. The problem lies in the fact that an ork boy is stronger than a IG, Firewarrior, Guardian, etc., but not as strong as Space Marine, but there's no magical number between 3 and 4. I agree that 2 attacks helps even it out, game-wise, but when the modern fluff describes orks as being able to rip out a man's throat or crush his skull with his bare hands, that reads to me as higher strength.

Again, this is just a friendly debate. It's not as though GW is listening. I just feel that orks should be higher strength and lesser skill, which is off-set advantage-wise, by low Initiative, bad leadership, and bad ballistic skill. That's how the orks are NOW, so they should reconsider changing the statline a bit to reflect the reinvented fluff. I'll always play orks, even if they nerf them in the next codex, but it would nice to at least have the S4 option on the table. Hell, I would live with some skarboy or cybork upgrades like in the last codex; it doesn't need to be codex-wide.