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So I have been a 40K player for about a year now(yeah, sad compared to you vets I know) and I have nicely painted 1500 pt Tau, Ultramarine and Necron armies. I still enjoy playing 40K games, but I am 'burning out' a bit on painting GW minis. I was thinking of branching out into Warmachine, if nothing else for variety, and I thought I'd pick the brains of you experts here...

How would you rate the quality of the PIP sculpts compared to GW? Similar quality- different? etc.

Are the metal models made by PIP as fiddly and in need of a lot of prep in constructing models(like GW metals), is any of the Warmachine stuff in plastic? How good is the PIP kit designs(from strictly a construction standpoint)?

Are the sizes of forces/investment similar to build a Warmachine army(compared to 40K)?- or can I play with smaller number of models?

When I got started with 40K, vets on forum such as this one gave me good advice to get started in identifying the 'must haves'- Black Reach, Battleforce, etc. What are the 'must haves' to get started in Warmachine?

Thanks in advance for any and all feedback.

I had a short stint with Warmachine back in 2004 and quickly sold off my army just because the FLGS was way too far. Anyway, assembling the metal models (espcially the warjacks) need alot of pinning as their arms with weapons are heavy. I always liked the sculpts better than GW. Force sizes are small IF you stick with a jack heavy army. Once you start adding units, the model count starts to grow (as is with GW). You can play with a small amount of models. The battle boxes are the best way to start as you will have a force to play with right away. One thing I am waiting for since Mark II has come out is if they will re-package the battle boxes with the plastic jacks. If they do, I will jump back into warmachine.

Here's my advice.

Don't.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Here's my advice.

Don't.

That

Yeah, pump all your money into GW so they can keep providing us with awesome minis and codeciies.

That's what I'm going to do.

Too late, guys, he found the Warmachine forum here.

Besides, you didn't even try to convince him. The words "don't" and "that" would only
really work on someone who didn't really want to start playing a new game. Fateweaver
had a go at it, but in the end he didn't answer the concerns of the original poster and
only forwarded a pro-GW argument which didn't help him with his questions.

I'm sick of people doing the "GW suckz PP is sooez muchz betterz! I <3 PP!!!" thing, the truth of the matter is this, PP is just like GW its all about making money.


I mean PP releases cooler newer more overpowered stuff every 3 months or so for a faction. Completely replacing older units.

To elaborate, the major negative for WM are the players. A more wretched pack of soulless and mirthless zombies you won't find anywhere outside an MTG tournament. The ruleset explicitly supports people building their armies like combo decks and the attitudes of PP itself as well as the player base are biased so anyone who doesn't see things their way is some kind of subhuman dreg not worth talking to.

To hell with them all.

Red_Lives wrote:I'm sick of people doing the "GW suckz PP is sooez muchz betterz! I <3 PP!!!" thing, the truth of the matter is this, PP is just like GW its all about making money.


I mean PP releases cooler newer more overpowered stuff every 3 months or so for a faction. Completely replacing older units.

Still doesn't deal with the OP. He was switching for variety, not because of some flamebrained
PP>GW argument. And we want companies we like to make money, because we want them
to continue making more of the stuff we like. The problem comes when a company makes
stuff you don't like and you give them your money anyway...

Minis for me are hit and miss. Some of the PP scultps I really enjoy (like the new Menoth tiny head-huge pauldron minis but some are meh like most of the horde minis and Cygnar.

New plastic jacks should alleviate the "curse all night assembling a giant 3 pound block of metal" syndrome and apparently $26 for a kit making one of a few different jacks (apparently plastic infantry too but not sure what or when).

Contrary to most threads the Tyranids have invigorated my interest in 40k again and depending on how good I think the new BA will be I'll either start an army of them or go back to working on Daemons and Eldar.

How would you rate the quality of the PIP sculpts compared to GW? Similar quality- different? etc.

The older Prime and escalation sculpts are just plain bad, however the sculpts since Apotheosis are comparable to newer GW sculpts.

Are the metal models made by PIP as fiddly and in need of a lot of prep in constructing models(like GW metals), is any of the Warmachine stuff in plastic? How good is the PIP kit designs(from strictly a construction standpoint)?


On the plus side there isn't alot of hanging metal on the PP models unlike the GW ones. However a good portion of the PP sculpts are just a pain in the buttox. Kits like Terminus and karchev will make you pull your hair out with you bloody fingers. Alot of the spear like things on the PP models have a tenancy to bend more than reaper weapons (Iron Fangs for example) however on the plus side it appears that alot of the newer stuff will be released in plastic.


Are the sizes of forces/investment similar to build a Warmachine army(compared to 40K)?- or can I play with smaller number of models?

You play with a smaller number of models and the intital cost for a good sized army is close to 150 USD.

When I got started with 40K, vets on forum such as this one gave me good advice to get started in identifying the 'must haves'- Black Reach, Battleforce, etc. What are the 'must haves' to get started in Warmachine?

Depending on what faction you pick a battle box is a good start.

On a side note I wouldn't recommend playing Warmachine. I have been playing since Prime and have completely lost interest at this point. There are Several reasons why.

1. Model Power creep, in almost every case the newest models released with a faction are a MUST have This gets really old when models you've had for years just collect dust

2. The ungodly amount of Eratta PP has, MK2 has erased that at the moment but give it time, PP will have 50 pages of online eratta in less than a few years again

3. WM is a game that has alot of "Game changing abilities" Feats are the most famous, I do not personally like this as it causes the game to be more about unit combos than real strategy. (its possible to have killed 3/4 of an opponents army then lose your war caster to a feat and odd unit combo thus losing the game)

4. PP fans give PP FAR too much slack.

Hehe, we should ask the mods to change the title of this thread. Well, I did ask for clarification

I'm perfectly content to collect my Mercenaries, but I'm really not keen to actually play the game, given the deficient nature of the playerbase. As it is, however, there is no wargame out there that does the sort of narrative and interesting battles I'd like, and the trend seems to be flowing in the opposite direction, with WM being essentially MTG with minis instead of cards.

I agree, WM is still about Card Combos

Agamemnon2 wrote:To elaborate, the major negative for WM are the players. A more wretched pack of soulless and mirthless zombies you won't find anywhere outside an MTG tournament. The ruleset explicitly supports people building their armies like combo decks and the attitudes of PP itself as well as the player base are biased so anyone who doesn't see things their way is some kind of subhuman dreg not worth talking to.

To hell with them all.

Been to YMDC lately?

But seriously, this criticism really worries me. I have not had a chance to meet with my local WM/H players yet so I cannot speak to whether it is true or false. I find that many if not most of tabletop wargaming and RPG fans I've met take some of their IRL insecurity complex out on their opponents in games but that this attitude reaches geaver pitch among MtG guys. This is one of the reasons I cannot stand to be around serious MtG players. If WM/H players are truly like them, it would make me seriously reconsider getting involved.

Pity we don't live near each other, Agamemnon, seems like we'd be ideal opponents if you truly value narrative over "OMFG I M THE WARLORDZ!!1!" powergaming.

Community happens. I like the game enough to play past nerd overlord types, and people
meet me halfway on that. A lot of it is respect going both ways on this matter.

In terms of MtG: guess I'm not sure. It seems you'd have to be cutthroat if you're
playing the game for money.

On a side note all but 1 of the WM players at my local shop also play MTG.

Anyone else have this trend in your shops?

The only shop that does WM where I live is the local Magic haven which is why this makes me anxious.

Red_Lives wrote:On a side note all but 1 of the WM players at my local shop also play MTG.

Anyone else have this trend in your shops?

Nope.

I've met:

Warmachine/40k players
Warmachine/Parent (no other hobby)
Warmachine/Video Games
Warmachine/WoW (or MW)

I haven't met any who seriously play MtG. Those guys are busy seriously playing
M:tG in the local circuits at comic shops trying to build up their ratings.

Hm.

1. I'm a WM/40k players

2. My stores demographics, the more you mention it...

It has a CRAP TON of MTG players, and WM players. More than 40k.

3. I've experienced both worlds, my summary:
I ditched 40k for about 5-6 months.

I had interesting fun playing WM/H, but it really is a totally different game, so are the players.

Its all about killing each other. Imagine your normal game in WM feeling like a 40k Tourney Game.

I kept playing people who kept on bashing my skull. Some people like this, I do, only if this is a tourney. I haven't had the chance to get any 'recreational' fun out of playing WM/H though.

Model wise, both are dope.

Do I still play both to this day? Yeah.


I'm like 60% GW, 40% WM.

WM/H is a pretty tight system, so you can actually make it into something competitive - not that you necessarily have to. It can still be played in a light-hearted way, it just was designed to go far beyond that.

To specifically answer the op question. There are varying levels of quality and detail in the PP range (like most ranges I guess?) Go for models that you like the look of and you won't be disappointed.

There are plastic kits for most of the basic warjacks and some of the larger units. One kit will have the interchangeable parts to make any of the heavy warjacks based on that chassis. The plastic is different than GW plastic and requires superglue. Plastic cement will not work.

Size of a force that you will put on the table at a tournament is smaller than 40k - and the cost is less for that single force. However! It seems like no one stops there, and we typically spend at least as much on WM as we did on 40k.

Must haves to get started: Prime MkII rulebook. Pick a faction that you like the playstyle, look, and/or fluff of. Pick a warcaster that interests you. Get the warcaster and 2 of the heavy plastic kits for that faction. Then there are some excellent utility solos for each faction that will really help you out for little $$. Play the hell out of that stuff until you know what you want to get from there. Avoid units and esp avoid cavalry to start - they are complex and expensive.

The warmachine players I've interacted with have been relatively poor. The 40k/WM players I've met, have been much better. The last time I was on the PP forums, which is when the game came out, they made YMDC look positively utopian. The metal figures require a lot of extra work, as has been stated before and I find the 'jacks themselves pretty bland. They're big, but with alot of flat surface. Mark 1 rules set seemed to be built on buying the latest, coolest, most broken stuff and building the army around it. Menoth infantry armies broke the game. Supposedly all of that has been fixed with Mk 2. At best I'll do a wait and see.

Manchu wrote:The only shop that does WM where I live is the local Magic haven which is why this makes me anxious.

I think you're anxious over nothing though. Magic attracts all sorts, so does 40k, so does WM. They're just people.

I also disagree that WM is about card combos. It's way, way more about threat distances, maneuver and positioning. While you can create some synergies between different models, it's nothing like building some sort of chain of cards in a collectible card game.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Here's my advice.

Don't.

I gotta go with this.

Howlingmoon wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Here's my advice.

Don't.

I gotta go with this.

Don't. Really, don't. Just because I'm a horrible person is no excuse for you to jump on the bandwagon. This forum needs less people like me, not more. If you have reasons, respect your fellow posters enough to enumerate them instead of just going "ditto".

Agamemnon2 wrote:To elaborate, the major negative are the players. A more wretched pack of soulless and mirthless zombies you won't find anywhere outside an WFB or 40k tournament. The ruleset explicitly supports people building their armies like combo decks and the attitudes of GW itself as well as the player base are biased so anyone who doesn't see things their way is some kind of subhuman dreg not worth talking to.

To hell with them all.

FYP.

I play PP and everyone I play against is nice. I've never run into a complete eejit. Also, just because a game has cards, doesn't mean it's a CCG.

My biggest problem would be some of the god awful sculpts (Champions, whhhyyyyy!) and the all metal nature. The game itself is really good fun.

On topic:

Model quality:

Aesthetics aside (as this is purely subjective on the part of the player) - the metals are relatively clean of mould lines and are mostly flash free. Fit is hit or miss. Many older metal models have infamously bad fit. Greenstuff and pinning is not a bad idea on the majority of Privateer's products. They are modeled in typically modelled in fixed poses, so if you want to dynamicly repose models, you'll need some level of skill with a jewler's saw, pinning and greenstfuff. Detail is on par with GW. Some of the models have very small components that are hard to pin. Greenstuff joins usually helps in this case, though I find it better to pin whenever possible.

Keep in mind that there is no customizing units in WM/Hordes, and that a units equipment is set in stone.

Cost

Tournament sized armies (for competitive or casual play) will cost about the same. 35 points in WM/Hordes is about the same cost as a 1500 point 40k army based on MSRP alone. WM/Hordes will have fewer models. I've found that deeper discounts can be found online for WM/Hordes over GW though.

Player Douchebaggery (or Percieved Douchebaggery)

Warmachine has a steep learning curve - and as is often pointed out, is very combo based, and as such, most new players spend the first dozen or so games getting PWNED into the the ground. The levels at which the PWNING is happening is completely dependent on the inherent learning abilities of the player starting the game, and whether or not his/her opponent is actually trying to teach the game.

I usually try to teach the game in stages:

1. Movement, attacking, charging, focus alocation.
2. Spell casting and feats (if the new player is familiar with Magic's mana system, this can be bundled into #1)
3. Power attacks, cover and modifiers.

If they've mastered those 3 aspects, it's time to amp it up a step and use the full rules. Against most players who are familiar with Magic and/or Warhammer, they are usually able to win their second game (starter box set of choice) against my "demo set" consisting of Ashlynn and two Nomads.

The second area where there are lots of complaints is that there are a lot of different units to keep track of - and they all have special abilities. These are printed on the units stat card, where they can be freely examined. If the other player refuses to explain his unit abilities or doesn't alow examination of their stat cards... they are a douchebag. If a player looses due to their opponent executing a combo move, this is a learning experience. While douchebaggery is commonly found in gaming circles, a lot of times I find that a player's inability to learn from their mistakes leads to the loudest cries of cheese and accusations of douchebaggery when they themselves are to blame.

Re: Power Levels and Creep

This is -also- true to a degree. This aspect also leads to cries that the game is unbalanced and the players are douchebags. Privateer does put out lots of cool new units with very powerful abilities. Some become auto-include, some are very situational. They are almost always very expensive, points-wise... with some small elite 3 man units costing close to a 6 man unit of bread and butter infantry.

The thing that frustrates a lot of new players about Warmachine is that buying the "greatest new thing" doesn't automatically translate into winning. The "greatest new things" are usually very points expensive - using many of them will result in being outnumbered, sometimes badly. Without a complete understanding of the game system, it is hard to get good mileage out of many of these specialist units.

It is perfectly possible to build a meat and potatos army with very few (if any) of the sparkly new toys and be VERY competitive - I personally think that this is the better way to build armies. I do not own any models newer than Superiority (and very few models from that book to boot) but can still field very competitive armies with models dating back to the first edition of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarge wrote:Menoth infantry armies broke the game.

I had a Menite infantry army - it was pretty good, but it had some terrible match-ups. In one hillarious game the High Reclaimer stood there at the top of turn 3 and had 28 soul tokens, with FOC3 after a pile of Deneghra's venom sprays, her feat and a pile of bile thrall purges wrecked my army. I shouldn't have won the game (on objectives!) but my opponent was so elated that he forgot the win conditions for a crucial minute!

With PP hitting the reset button, I think the RT-style power creep is less of an issue.

@John: Considering PP's "wave" approach to releases, I'm sure it will start up again in a quarter or so. Most of their new releases have been in the "meh" category for me, as their points values are far too high. This has been somewhat disapointing, as I've been looking for new mercenary solos to flesh out my mercenary force.