Switch Theme:

DOOM of Malan'tai and its usefulness  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

The new tyranid codex has been giving me a headache, in a good way, when it comes to the elite slots for my FOC. Not because we have too few choices, but now we have so many viable options for our lists and not enough places to put them!

I found a pewter model at my FLGS made by Warlord called the "Devourer of Mashaf". Basically it was a $10 blister that looked like a giant spore mine with fangs. After some green stuff and a few extra bits from my trygon kit, however, I have a floaty, large-brained, DOOM OF MALAN'TAI!

Now playing with the doom so far has been very fun for me and not so for my opponents. The best trick (and a dirty trick i might add) I have found for him is to place him in a spod with a tyranid prime bodyguard, and deep strike amidst the enemy's gunline (or parking garage, if they're mech'ed up). During the shooting phase, every unit within 6" has to take the Ld test on 3D6 or suffer wounds with no armor save, and at the same time buff the Doom for his template attack. What makes him so delicious is this ability will affect units within transports as well, just not the transports themselves. What's that, you say? His rule states "non-vehicle units"? Yes. Yes it does. And so, I quote from the 5th ed. FAQ released from GW themselves:

Q. Must passengers fire at the same target that
their vehicle is firing at?
A. No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are
temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so
can fire at a different target."

Therefore, if DOOM is within 6" of a full transport the vehicle itself suffers no soul-sucking but the occupants do. And if the transport somehow becomes stunned or immobilized, they have to get out to prevent it happening again on their turn, thus negating any heavy weapons in the squad. The bodyguard HQ can take any S8 or S9 hits to keep his charge alive from instant death, etc, etc.

Cheesy? Beardy? What are your thoughts on this combo?


Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Many people will probably argue with your interpretation of that rule, but regardless of that, this trick seems really gimmicky, and I can't imagine you'll really get to pull it off more than once.
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

What's to argue? The FAQ explicitly says "separate unit" when referring to models inside of a transport. The Doom's ability is a non-targeted 6" area effect, affecting all 'units' within the range. I see no point that can be made against my interpretation.

Also, the intent of the doom is not to decimate the entire opposing force, but to take whatever chunk out of it that he can, while distracting them from shooting the rest of my forces podding in/moving across the board/waking up in terrain, etc. I LOVE the new codex with the multiple deployment abilities! You never know where my bugs are going to come from next!!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/18 15:19:23


Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





I think people are going to argue that designer intent makes units in transports immune to this ability, similar to how they are immune to psychic powers. We'll see how it plays out in the FAQ.
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

the disparity between RAW and RAI is something that does hinder the flow of games, especially when a new codex comes out with sometimes strangely worded special rules.

I will probably end up arguing a lot about this ability with people because they don't want it to be as powerful as it can be rules-lawyered out to be. Hopefully a simple dice roll-off will be enough to settle most of these arguments.

Also, as an afterthought, does the BRB specifically state that units in transports are IMMUNE to psychic powers, or simply cannot be targeted by them? an example that comes to mind is lash of submission; you cannot target the units in a transport to lash them. However, an untargeted effect, in my opinion, could cause some kind of effect except for leadership check to the embarked unit. (Heh, ever seen a rhino falling back? lol)

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





The rulebook FAQ says that psychic powers can't be used at all against units in transports, unless the psyker is in the unit being transported.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/18 16:06:41


 
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

again, and i'm not trying to be argumentative here but inquisitive, the wording is where this rules-lawyering makes all the difference. does the BRB say 'affected by psychic powers' or 'targeted by psychic powers'? i will stop by my FLGS on my lunch break and look it up, because the wording does make a very big difference in this tactical combo.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





"Can psychic powers be used on a unit embarked on a transport?"

"No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit being transported."
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

I would argue that the Doom's Spirit leech is not a power that you elect to use; rather it is something that just happens every shooting phase. it says every enemy unit within 6" must make a ld test on 3d6, blah blah blah, whether you want them to or not. It just happens. Were it a targeted ability, such as the hive tyrant's paroxysm, i would completely agree that units within the transport cannot be targeted by the psychic power.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Spirit Leech isn't a psychic power, so it's not affected by this ruling specifically, but I think there's a good chance that the FAQ will not allow Spirit Leech to work on units in transports. Keep in mind that this ruling exists "for simplicity's sake." RAW, I'd say Spirit Leech probably works on units in transports, but I think the FAQ will probably not allow this to continue.
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

were this to be the case 2+ months from now when the FAQ gets written, the doom will go from a must-have staple unit to a 'maybe' in my book. Everybody who plays guard and SM at my flgs locks their infantry up in sardine cans every game.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





I don't think the Doom is really a staple unit regardless of whether its power works on models in transports, as it's quite easy to kill and uses a precious Elites slot. It's a cool power, but not one you can really rely on. Zoanthropes or Hive Guard seem generally more threatening to enemies in transports anyway.
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

based on the 3 games i've fielded him, he's caused enough disruption to allow my other units to move into position and wreak havoc. That alone is what makes him a must-have for me. The HQ bodyguard Tyranid Prime is my answer to krak missiles and lascannons. Railguns and Demolisher cannons are what i try to avoid, which is what makes deep-striking with a spod so great for this combo. At the very least i can attempt to cause a squad of broadsides to die before they get a chance to fire their S10 shots at my unit, or i can drop behind a railhead and hopefuly a s5 d.spitter can glance and cause it not to be able to shoot either. 40k is a game of dice rolls and gambits, which do not always pay off, but i have found the most fun games are the ones where you take chances. When a random or risky move pays off it feels way better than when you do the same tried-and-true method repeatedly. Again, another reason why i love the new 'nid dex, it allows for so many ways to deploy your troops onto the battlefield the opponent (and I) never know where the bugs will be coming from until the game is underway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/18 16:39:35


Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion



Minneapolis

Alright tetrisphreak, please do me a favor. Measure the distance from the doom to the embarked unit. Not to the transport, as that is not the embarked unit. Measure to the embarked unit itself, and let me know if it's within 6".

Now no using reverse terminology. Just because psychic powers from a transported psyker are measured from the hull of the vehicle does not mean that the transported unit is at the hull, just the same as a unit firing from fire points measures from that fire point. Since these are 2 different cases yet apply to the same idea, it can't be used as a general "here is where the embarked unit is" rule.

So please, measure to the base of the embarked unit so I know it's within 6".

Also the doom is not an IC, and I believe that units that only ever consist of 1 model that is not an IC cannot be joined by other ICs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/18 16:46:49


 
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

Q. Must passengers fire at the same target that
their vehicle is firing at?
A. No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are
temporarily co-existing with the vehicle) and so
can fire at a different target."

It says right there they are 'co-existing' with the vehicle. Therefore the measurement distance is to the hull of the vehicle, which they are occupying the same space, or 'footprint' as we say here.

I.C.'s can join any unit, including other I.C.'s. Otherwise Tyrant guard would come in broods of 2-3, not 1-3.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/18 16:45:39


Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion



Minneapolis

By that definition, The Nightbringer's Etheric Tempest ability also affects embarked enemies.
In addition, if a model suffers 25% casualties from the spirit leech, they have to take a morale check. Now let's say that this is a model embarked in a wave serpent that moved flat out, and they fail their morale check (we'll say that the person was stupid enough to flat out the serpent to within 6" of the Doom so this happens in their shooting phase). How do you resolve the enemy disembarking? Also, how do you resolve how far the models move, and what happens if they force disembark? The concept of affecting embarked models brings up so many problems that it shouldn't even be considered. Similarly with the Etheric Tempest, if models have to move directly away from the Nightbringer, and so are forced to disembark, are they allowed to do anything for the rest of the turn? This is also a problem because force disembarkation is only used when models cannot be placed so that they are more than 1" away from an enemy and/or are not in impassable terrain. So in essence it is an illegal force disembark that has to happen and can't happen at the same time.

One other thing, I'd like to present a funny situation: A squad of fire dragons moves just past the doom (ie just a little closer to the Tyranid edge than the Eldar edge) in their serpent. The doom uses its ability, which kills off enough dragons to force a test which they fail. They run out of the serpent, but it is still their shooting phase. Since units are allowed to shoot while falling back, the dragons fire at the doom, causing it to fail one of its invulnerable saves and instant killing it.


Also I said "units that only ever consist of 1 model" not "units that may exist only as one model but can exist as more than 1 if you want to shell out the points for it."

Pg48 of the BRB states that ICs can't join units that always consist of a single model (or else I'm putting my farseer with a wraithlord making those pesky anti infantry weapons worthless against him). However, yes, ICs can join other ICs (the book states this).

edited to further clarify my point.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/18 17:25:02


 
   
Made in us
Dominar






Hrm. Psychic powers (which Spirit Leech isn't) can't affect units in vehicles unless the psyker is in the unit (irrelevant in this case).

But the only way to measure to the unit would be to backwardize the Psychic effects emanating from the Hull rule, which wouldn't really apply since Soul Leech isn't a psychic power. I don't know of anywhere else in the rules that would let you measure to a vehicle to see if you can affect the passengers.

So either Soul Leech doesn't work because it's a psychic ability and cannot be used against a target unit in a transport, or Soul Leech doesn't work because it's not a psychic ability and has no rules for measuring range to an embarked unit inside their transport.
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

I was unaware of the IC + unique character = illegal rule. Apart from that though, i have an issue with saying that i cannot measure to the embarked squad. They are in that tank! That tank right there! The one 5" from my base! how is that not good enough measurement? And fluff-wise, if ceramite and plasteel plating can prevent your soul from being sucked out of your body by a psychic entity able to single clawdedly remove all life from an eldar craftworld, why did the eldar not just get in wave serpents and shoot star cannons at the doom? He'd just be another zoanthrope were that the case with nothing special going on for him.

I do think when the FAQ is eventually released it will rule in favor of embarked units being required to take the test. A good example is to look at the parasite of mortrex's entry: If an outflanking unit is in a vehicle, it still has to take the test to see if one of its passengers dies from a ripper infestation. This is a similar ability, requiring a test to be taken by a unit inside a vehicle, it is simply more situational.

We will see. Until then i will play the rule as agreed upon by my local players, with dice-roll-offs as necessary to resolve disputes.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/18 17:29:32


Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Is the Doom of Malan'tai an Independent Character?
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

No, i just looked at the codex and he does not have the "independent character" special rule. His composition is 1 (Unique) and his type is Infantry.

Well, I guess it comes back now to wrecking/exploding transports with zoeys while moving the doom towards the occupants, forcing them to ld check on their shooting phase unless they can move far enough away from me.

Again, he's a very distractionary character and still serves what i consider to be a good purpose, even if i am totally wrong on the transport thingy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/18 17:45:21


Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in ca
Member of the Malleus





Canada

I don't think that it would affect units in a transport. I cannot target a unit in a transport, only the transport, If I drop a template on a transport, I do not target the units inside only the transport. If I assualt a Chimera with Yeril and use his Bale Eye template attack which is not targeting anything, just a template over hiim, I cannot hit the unit in the transport. If i use the halocaust Psk ability and it hits a loaded transport. If I explode a vehicle, and the explosion reaches a loaded transport, the embarked unit is unaffected. These are examples of abilities that work the same as Doom's. They affect a non-targeted area, not a specific unit. You are trying to take a new badly worded ability and get everything you can get out of it. You will be argued with every time and as you can see there are many examples of similar abilties to back up the no you can't viewpoint. Also this thread should maybe be in You Make Da Call

 
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

At this point, you may be right, as my tactic listed in the OP is now a highly contended ability that nobody who uses transports likes because it hurts their army. I do not know how to move a thread, perhaps a mod could do it?

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
Made in us
Dominar






I don't think anybody disagrees because it "hurts their army", it just doesn't seem to be legal.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Sentient OverBear






Clearwater, FL

This kind of started out in Tactics, but has rapidly evolved into a YMDC kind of thread.

Heh, and I just now saw your move request. Done!

DQ:70S++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k94+ID+++A++/sWD178R+++T(I)DM+++

Trust me, no matter what damage they have the potential to do, single-shot weapons always flatter to deceive in 40k.                                                                                                       Rule #1
- BBAP

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

tetrisphreak wrote:I was unaware of the IC + unique character = illegal rule. Apart from that though, i have an issue with saying that i cannot measure to the embarked squad. They are in that tank! That tank right there! The one 5" from my base! how is that not good enough measurement? And fluff-wise, if ceramite and plasteel plating can prevent your soul from being sucked out of your body by a psychic entity able to single clawdedly remove all life from an eldar craftworld, why did the eldar not just get in wave serpents and shoot star cannons at the doom? He'd just be another zoanthrope were that the case with nothing special going on for him.

I do think when the FAQ is eventually released it will rule in favor of embarked units being required to take the test. A good example is to look at the parasite of mortrex's entry: If an outflanking unit is in a vehicle, it still has to take the test to see if one of its passengers dies from a ripper infestation. This is a similar ability, requiring a test to be taken by a unit inside a vehicle, it is simply more situational.

We will see. Until then i will play the rule as agreed upon by my local players, with dice-roll-offs as necessary to resolve disputes.


When a unit embarks on a transport, you remove the unit from the table. Units in transports can not be targeted, fired at, pinned, or have any status effected on them until their transport is removed or they disembark. You can't measure 6" to something that's not on the table.

In terms of your fluff-answer....ceramite and plasteel probably can't prevent your soul from being sucked out of your body. But when your unit deep-strikes onto the table in the middle of some enemy tanks, exactly how is it supposed to know that the tank is full of people without peeling it open to see what's inside?




   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Glorious Nation of U.S.S.A!

there is no example of ANY enemy ability (shooting, psychic, morale, whatever) that affects a unit embarked in a transport. using an FAQ (which according to GW is not official and just house rules) doesn't help you, especially since the "ruling" your using doesn't apply to what you're saying since it's talking about the owning player controlling the embarked unit. the rules SPECIFICALLY say that although you remove transported units off the table top, they can fire and move out per the firepoint and transport rules. they say NOTHING about enemy units affecting an offboard unit. you have to quote a rule that allows you to do something in order to do it. blast templates affect everything under the template (or to use your example, everything within 2.5 inches); would you take wounds for your 10 guardmsen in a chimera because a template landed on a vehicle and they are within 2.5 inches?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Whether or not the Doom is supposed to work as if it were targeting each unit within that distance, or whether it's simply an involuntary special rule which happens to cause damage, is something which needs to be FAQ'd.

If the doom special rule specifies units within X", then absent other considerations the rule which would allow a embarked unit to be affected is on page 66, "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull." If the Doom is on the board and it's 9" away from a transport, then the embarked unit is also 9" away, according to page 66. As much as some posters will vehemently disagree, there are no official GW FAQ statements which say "Harmful effects cannot affect embarked units".

Very many abilities specify models within X", and those abilities run into the complications alluded to in the main rulebook FAQ response, questions such as "If a unit is X" away, how many of the models are actually X" away?" "If only part of the transport is within X", how many of the embarked models are within X"?" There are enough FAQ answers to argue precedent that if a special rule for any single embarked model needs to be measured, that measurement can be done from any point on the hull of the embarked vehicle. Note that "units with models within X"" has the same issue as "models within X"" because it is necessary in both cases to establish distance to a particular model.

So as long as the Doom special rules specifies "units within X"" and not "units with models within X"", then by RaW (and not yet FAQ'd), the special rule should apply.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





There is one ability that works on embarked units, The parasite of mortrex. However I agree with warboss and dash of pepper that the Doom of Malantai cannot affect embarked units. For the Parasite of Mortrex gw had to actually state that it worked that way. No such clarification exists for the Doom of Malantai.

Overall this character isn't as great as people think he is. Its definitely not bad for sure, and will cause a lot of pain for horde armies. However some important things to note.

1. Unlike regular Zoan's it isn't a synapse creature. This means it has to test for IB. Thats cool though right? All I wanna do with it is shoot? Well guess what IB it is? Its a feeder not a lurker.

2. It can be instant killed.

3. Even though its soul sucker ability works in the opponents shooting phase you have to remember that your opponent will get a movement phase in which they are pretty much going to move everything out of its range before its ability gets off. This is even helped further by them allocating wounds to the models closest to it.

4. You know how you gain wounds from dealing them right? Well don't forget using your big potential demolisher cannon psychic power will deal d3 wounds to it with no save possible. Furthermore these wounds are dealt BEFORE you gain wounds back. Your first shooting attack can't kill you (unless you get unlucky and take a perils), however it does mean you can be stuck with stuff all wounds when it comes time to shoot back at you.
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






this is a flat out nope. If my Necron Lord's Nightmare Shroud can't make units in transports run out in terror then I'm sure your little DOOM thing can't target them inside
   
Made in au
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






solkan wrote:Whether or not the Doom is supposed to work as if it were targeting each unit within that distance, or whether it's simply an involuntary special rule which happens to cause damage, is something which needs to be FAQ'd.

If the doom special rule specifies units within X", then absent other considerations the rule which would allow a embarked unit to be affected is on page 66, "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull." If the Doom is on the board and it's 9" away from a transport, then the embarked unit is also 9" away, according to page 66. As much as some posters will vehemently disagree, there are no official GW FAQ statements which say "Harmful effects cannot affect embarked units".

Very many abilities specify models within X", and those abilities run into the complications alluded to in the main rulebook FAQ response, questions such as "If a unit is X" away, how many of the models are actually X" away?" "If only part of the transport is within X", how many of the embarked models are within X"?" There are enough FAQ answers to argue precedent that if a special rule for any single embarked model needs to be measured, that measurement can be done from any point on the hull of the embarked vehicle. Note that "units with models within X"" has the same issue as "models within X"" because it is necessary in both cases to establish distance to a particular model.

So as long as the Doom special rules specifies "units within X"" and not "units with models within X"", then by RaW (and not yet FAQ'd), the special rule should apply.


Thank you Solkan, I was trying to explain all this but didn't even know where to start given the abundance of misinformation in the thread. Solkan is 100% correct on this issue.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: