Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Tyranid CCW thread sparked me to conclude this is legal by Raw:

A model equiped with both a power weapon and a power fist may make his attacks at his initiative, doubling his strength.

Here's how (all on p.42)

Models wounded in close combat by the attacks of a model armed with a power weapon are not allowed armor saves

Note it refers to attacks the model makes, not specifically attacks using the power weapon.

A power fist is a power weapon, and also double the user's Strength (up to a maximum of 10). Power fists, however, are difficult and cumbersome to use, so attacks with a power fist are always delivered at Initiative 1[...].

So a power fist double the strength, but it does in no way tie that effect to using the weapon.

Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never ge the bonus attack for using two weapons [...].

Note that while you must choose which to use, it does not negate bonuses/penalties of the weapons you are armed with.

Therefore, if I make a captain with a power weapon and a power fist, he gets his 3 profile attacks at his profile initiative of 5, at double his profile strength of 4 (8).

Thoughts? Lets keep the comments concerning RAW only here.

RAW only? You got me!

I laughed really hard when I saw this thread started after reading the Nid one. This cracks me up!

it says you "must choose which weapon to use that turn". if you're not using it, you're not gaining any of its effects. so, if you have a power weapon and power fist, you don't get +1 attacks and you CHOOSE which rules to use. you don't get to pick and choose from both; it's close combat, not a chinese buffet. the reason there is a question with the nids is ONLY because the last two codices were crystal clear that they could combine them but the upcoming one is not (although IMO does infer they combine).

Please adhere to the tenets of YMDC in this thread. If you disagree, please provide exact quotes and explanations as I did. Otherwise DO NOT POST.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

warboss wrote:it says you "must choose which weapon to use that turn". if you're not using it, you're not gaining any of its effects. so, if you have a power weapon and power fist, you don't get +1 attacks and you CHOOSE which rules to use. you don't get to pick and choose from both; it's close combat, not a chinese buffet. the reason there is a question with the nids is ONLY because the last two codices were crystal clear that they could combine them but the upcoming one is not (although IMO does infer they combine).

My OP addressed why this is incorrect. Please read my post and refute it using real rules quotes.

Dracos wrote:My OP addressed why this is incorrect. Please read my post and refute it using real rules quotes.

i did read it. i came to the conclusion that your reasoning is completely flawed. (wow, i sound like gwar...). here are the reasons:

The effects of power weapons and power fists are described on page 42 under special close combat weapons. on the same page, it states you must choose which weapon you're using if you've got two special weapons. you ONLY get the benefits/disadvantages listed under the weapon description if that is the one you CHOOSE. so, to recap, if you want the text under the subheading of "power fist", you have to choose the power fist. no amount of johny cochraning changes that.

warboss wrote: you ONLY get the benefits/disadvantages listed under the weapon description if that is the one you CHOOSE.

That is not supported by the rules at all - you are inserting that. I acknowledge in my OP that it tells you to choose which to use, but no where does it say you only apply the bonuses of the weapon you are using.

The powerfist description gives you the double strength just for being armed with it. Please provide a real rules quote which negates this.

Dracos wrote:
That is not supported by the rules at all - you are inserting that. I acknowledge in my OP that it tells you to choose which to use, but no where does it say you only apply the bonuses of the weapon you are using.

The powerfist description gives you the double strength just for being armed with it. Please provide a real rules quote which negates this.

really? just wow... so... you're saying that you get to USE the rules text of a weapon that you're clearly not USING by choice? there is ample common sense and raw in the examples above; you just don't WANT to see it. i suggest you try this in real life and see the reaction of your opponent (which will probably be the last time they'll agree to play against you).

Here's the kicker that sealed it for me.

"A Power Fist is a power weapon, and also doubles the user's strength"

You've already posted the Power Weapon bit, so I can just reference it.

"Attacks made by a model armed with a (Power Weapon/Fist/Lightning Claw/Thunder Hammer). have (insert effects here)"

Where this falls apart (and I skim close to the tenets of YMDC here) is whether one can be 'armed' with something without using it.

Now, I only have my Eldar Codex on hand, and I can only comment that you may 'give' weapons to models or 'exchange' weapons on models. If, indeed, codexes allow you to 'arm' a model with these weapons (as opposed to a word for 'purchase' or 'exchange' or 'give') then I will accept that simply by purchasing a weapon are the effects gained. As it stands, 'armed' is only used in the Close Combat Weapons portion, so we cannot determine if it means 'carrying' or 'using'.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/armed

Armed definition

1 a : furnished with weapons <an armed guard>; also : using or involving a weapon b : furnished with something that provides security, strength, or efficacy <armed with knowledge>
2 : marked by the maintenance of armed forces in readiness

definition 1a means that just being in possession of a weapon makes you armed. Therefore, a powerfist gives you its bonus just for possessing it. This is in opposition to Lightning claws which specifically mention wielding. So you have to use the LC to gain its benefit, meaning if you have a lightning claw and power fist you can use the lightning claw to strike at I, double strength and reroll to wound.

Page 42 - if you are not using the weapon you cannot recieve the bonuses (or penalties) of said weapon, as it states you get bonuses for using the weapon. Here the negation DOES work.

Please adhere to the tenets of YMDC in this thread.

6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

Tsk. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Agreed Nosferatu, thanks for pointing me to the right spot.

Double post.

I figured this was not legal, but I couldn't find the passage that actually negated it, which is why I demanded so strongly that RAW be cited to negate it.

Thanks guys who actually did do so.

Teh advantage of giving someone a P.Sword and a P.Fist is that you can CHOOSE WHICH TO USE. if you use the p.sword you get yoru normal I and no armour save, if you use the fist you get double S but I1.

Dracos wrote:Please adhere to the tenets of YMDC in this thread. If you disagree, please provide exact quotes and explanations as I did. Otherwise DO NOT POST.

Kettle, meet Pot.

The simple fact is, Nid CCWs work different to normal ones, end of story. You don't have to like it, it just is. For your "Quotes" see the Nid CCW Thread.

I called up my local TO & told him to read this as I found it funny & we're fairly good friends. His response, and I quote:

"If you attempt to be THAT GUY, I would disqualify you faster than the Imperium would wipe your stupid fish people off the face of the galaxy, were it not for all their other enemies"

On a side note he plays Guard

Here'sd a related question for Marneas Calgar. Does he gain the extra attack for having 2 powerfists as he also has a power weapon and if so when he pulls out his power weapon does he get the bonus attack on that?

You would get a bonus attack if you use 2 power fists, if you use the power weapon then no you would not get the bonus attack since you using a different type of special weapon then the other two.

No, you don't ever get the bonus attack.

Calgar has TWO Special Weapons, "The Gauntlets of Ultramar" and a "Power Weapon". By choosing between these two, he loses the ability to EVER claim a bonus attack for 2 CCW, even though the Gauntlets of Ultramar are a Matched set of Power Fists.

Bad wording in that codex, it does state that he has a pair of powerfists but it's lore based on the weapon. For the stat line he just has two special weapons so it's not very clear if he gets a bonus attack for the Gaunlets. I would assume that it's included in his statline attacks.

I'm pretty sure RaI is he gets the bonus attacks fo rthe gaunlets but not the power weapon, thought it is far from clear and it looks as though RAW is he can't get the bonus attack for either.

On a related note, would you then consider a model armed with a "pair of ccws" as not gaining an additional attack?

ph34r wrote:On a related note, would you then consider a model armed with a "pair of ccws" as not gaining an additional attack?

Does this model armed with a "Pair of CCW" have to choose between 2 special weapons, as Calgar Does?

FlingitNow wrote:Here'sd a related question for Marneas Calgar. Does he gain the extra attack for having 2 powerfists as he also has a power weapon and if so when he pulls out his power weapon does he get the bonus attack on that?

before history completely repeats itself... your question is one that comes up repeatedly and tends to get threads locked (much like necron we'll be back threads). here's a few dozen posts to chomp on regarding this...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240925.page#727623

Gwar! wrote:

ph34r wrote:On a related note, would you then consider a model armed with a "pair of ccws" as not gaining an additional attack?

Does this model armed with a "Pair of CCW" have to choose between 2 special weapons, as Calgar Does?

No, just a pair of ccws, no other weapons. To determine whether or not one actually considers a "pair" as 2 weapons, which I do.

Yes, in this case they get the +1 attack. However this is NOT the same situation as with Calgar, as Special CCW have a restriction that normal CCW do not.

Right, but what makes a "pair" of normal ccws work, and a "pair" of power fists not work? I am aware that you need 2 power fists to gain an extra attack, and a pair would constitute 2 if a pair is 2 for ccws.

ph34r wrote:Right, but what makes a "pair" of normal ccws work, and a "pair" of power fists not work? I am aware that you need 2 power fists to gain an extra attack, and a pair would constitute 2 if a pair is 2 for ccws.

Yes, he has a pair of power fists, and would get the bonus attack, were it not for the fact he has had to have chosen between 2 special weapons, in which doing so DENIES him the bonus attack>

A Model with a pair of CCW gets a bonus attack
A model with a pair of Power Fists get a bonus attack.
A Model with "Special CCW that acts as 2 Power Fists" and "Power Weapon" does not get a bonus attack.

ph34r wrote:Right, but what makes a "pair" of normal ccws work, and a "pair" of power fists not work? I am aware that you need 2 power fists to gain an extra attack, and a pair would constitute 2 if a pair is 2 for ccws.

Because Calgar *also* has another Special CCW, and therefore has to choose which Special CCW to use: the Gauntlets or power sword. having to choose between 2 (or more) Special CCW requires tat you NEVER get the bonus attack.