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Very interesting, the wording does specifically state in the BRB that if you have 2 different special weapons you never get the bonus attack. RAI prob was intended otherwise (choose your two powerfist get +1 or chose the PW and get +0) but the RAW is perfectly clear.

Calgar is a mute point on +1 because he doesn't get it regardless.

Interesting. So if you arm a character with a pair of lightning claws, and a power fist, you will not get a bonus attack with the lightning claws.
EDIT: actually, technically the "no bonus attacks" only happens when you have "2" special close combat weapons, not 3.

Funny. Someone with a rule "God of War" can't figure out how to turn on his other power fist when there's a power weapon sheathed on his hip.

ph34r wrote:Interesting. So if you arm a character with a pair of lightning claws, and a power fist, you will not get a bonus attack with the lightning claws.
EDIT: actually, technically the "no bonus attacks" only happens when you have "2" special close combat weapons, not 3.

Yes, and how many Weapons does Calgar have?

I see 2.

EDIT: actually, technically the "no bonus attacks" only happens when you have "2" special close combat weapons, not 3.

Yes, and how many Weapons does Calgar have?

I see 2.

But it counts as 3...

FlingitNow wrote:

EDIT: actually, technically the "no bonus attacks" only happens when you have "2" special close combat weapons, not 3.

Yes, and how many Weapons does Calgar have?

I see 2.

But it counts as 3...

No, it is 2, of which one counts as 2 when used. However, since he has had to choose between 2 special weapons already, he cannot claim the bonus attack under any circumstances.

Technically you are wrong the rule doesn't apply because the Gauntlets of Ultramar are not a single handed weapon, this restriction only applies to single handed weapons as laid out on page 42 under the head "Fighting With Two SINGLE-HANDED Weapons".

The gaunlets are a 2 handed weapon so this restriction does not apply to Calgar ever he has to use either both the gaunlets (a 2 handed weapon) or the Power sword (a single 1 handed weapon).

So essentially either way the restriction doesn't apply. The gaunlets either count as 1 double handed weapon or 2 single handed weapons (for a total of 3) neither case is covered by this rule.

FlingitNow wrote:Technically you are wrong the rule doesn't apply because the Gauntlets of Ultramar are not a single handed weapon, this restriction only applies to single handed weapons as laid out on page 42 under the head "Fighting With Two SINGLE-HANDED Weapons".

So you are saying that a model with a Pistol and CCW doesn't get the Bonus attack either?

So you are saying that a model with a Pistol and CCW doesn't get the Bonus attack either?

No the rules are quite clear only 2 special single-handed close combat weapons cause the restriction and then only if they are different. In Assault the Pistol counts as a CCW anyway so they are not even different so there is no way you could apply this rule to that equipement. In fact the rule under this head specifies that they get the extra attack if armed with 2 CCWs...

FlingitNow wrote:

So you are saying that a model with a Pistol and CCW doesn't get the Bonus attack either?

No the rules are quite clear only 2 special single-handed close combat weapons cause the restriction and then only if they are different. In Assault the Pistol counts as a CCW anyway so they are not even different so there is no way you could apply this rule to that equipement. In fact the rule under this head specifies that they get the extra attack if armed with 2 CCWs...

No, No. If you are gonna spout rubbish, I am gonna hold you to it. You said "this restriction only applies to single handed weapons as laid out on page 42 under the head "Fighting With Two SINGLE-HANDED Weapons". The rule "Two normal close combat weapons: These models gain one bonus attack" is under "Fighting With Two SINGLE-HANDED Weapons". As Pistols and normal CCWs are never defined as Single handed, by your logic they will never give a bonus attack.

As Pistols and normal CCWs are never defined as Single handed, by your logic they will never give a bonus attack.

Whilst you are right they are not defined as single handed weapons nothing is defined as a single handed weapon as far as I am aware. The only definition is therefore the normal definition of a weapon you use with 1 hand. Or anything that is not defined as 2 handed.

FlingitNow wrote:

As Pistols and normal CCWs are never defined as Single handed, by your logic they will never give a bonus attack.

Whilst you are right they are not defined as single handed weapons nothing is defined as a single handed weapon as far as I am aware. The only definition is therefore the normal definition of a weapon you use with 1 hand. Or anything that is not defined as 2 handed.

So, therefore, The Gauntlets of Ultramar are 1 handed, as is Calgars power weapon.

Thus, when in an assault, Calgar must Choose one of his two weapons, his two weapons being "The Gauntlets of Ultramar" and a "Power Weapon". Thus, he is choosing between 2 single handed weapons (as, as you say, the Gauntlets of Ultramar are not defined as two handed) and so cannot claim the bonus attack.

How are the Gaunlets 1 handed they are 2 powerfists each one is one handed for a total of 2 handed. How are you working out 1+1 = 1?

FlingitNow wrote:How are the Gaunlets 1 handed they are 2 powerfists each one is one handed for a total of 2 handed. How are you working out 1+1 = 1?

The Gauntlets are a single weapon. They are not defined as 2 handed, thus they are single handed.

And please leave "RaI" out of it, I know you love to try and use it as an argument. Unless you are Matthew Ward, you do not know what the RaI is. RaW, it is a single weapon.

The Gauntlets are a single weapon. They are not defined as 2 handed, thus they are single handed.

And please leave "RaI" out of it, I know you love to try and use it as an argument. Unless you are Matthew Ward, you do not know what the RaI is. RaW, it is a single weapon.

I've not mentioned RaI once in this thread and it is quite possible to know RaI without being Matt Ward.

I'm not arguing RaI because that is not a discussion RaI is clear.

How does counts as 2 single handed weapons mean it is one single handed weapon? How are you working that out? What is you justification for that interpretation?

Gwar! wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:How are the Gaunlets 1 handed they are 2 powerfists each one is one handed for a total of 2 handed. How are you working out 1+1 = 1?

The Gauntlets are a single weapon. They are not defined as 2 handed, thus they are single handed.

And please leave "RaI" out of it, I know you love to try and use it as an argument. Unless you are Matthew Ward, you do not know what the RaI is. RaW, it is a single weapon.

RaW, pg. 2: "The most important rule is the rules aren't that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours."

Good thing you two don't have to play each other. Also in Calgar's listing, the Gauntlet(s) (indicating two) say: These are a pair (meaning two) of power fist(s) (meaning more than one).

So, you'd rather Calgar's listing read:

Power Armour
Power Sword
Iron Halo
Guantlets of Ultramar
Gauntlets of Ultramar



That seems a little silly. I think it's pretty clear that Gauntlet(s) (more than one) indicate. . .more than one. . .

And, on the same logic that you're using to say that they "act as one weapon" - where does it say that? There is no where in his listing that say his double power fists act as a single weapon. Just because it only has one listing, which is plural?

Gwar's argument is, like most pure RAW arguments, simplified to the point of nonsense.

Point- A model equipped with 2 special CCW never gets an extra attack.
Point- Marneus Calgar has a Power Sword and the Gauntlets of Ultramar, 2 special CCW.
Conclusion- Marneus Calgar never gets an extra attack for two CCW.

Objection- But he has 2 powerfists! A model with 2 powerfists has an extra attack!
Rebuttal- See Conclusion. Unless he manages to lose the Powersword, he is still bound by the rule that he never gets an extra attack.


Fluff and Stuff follows-
Reasonably, this doesn't make sense. If he has 2 powerfists, should he not be able to use both hands? On the other hand (pun), how does a model wearing a deactivated powerfist use a powersword without destroying it? Surely the fine motor controls of a man wearing a glove thicker than his genetically augmented thigh are not good enough to use a sword without power. And if the fist is powered, it will crush the sword like a kitty.

In this instance, RAI is even sillier than RAW. There's no way a model wearing two powerfist could scratch an itch, let alone use a delicate piece of technology.

The Gauntlets are listed as one special weapon, therefor he has 2 special weapons giving no bonus attack. If it was listed:

Gauntlets of Ultramar (Two Powerfists)

then maybe.

Have you ever stopped to think that the bonus attack is built into his statline?

hate to deny you your rules, but as for RAW, It says you must choose which weapon.

HOWEVER.

it says in our Marines codex he may trade his boltgun/pistol for any of the following.

Any makes things ambiguous.
it's not one of the following, so if you're a grammar nazi, You can use that to get 2 LC, 2 TH, 2PF (if you don't like TH, wierdo's )

RAW makes me laugh.

My Proposed rule on this:

Take three normal attacks (PW, or w/e.) then take your initiative one/special attacks as one.

in this way, a cap'n w/ a powersword and a powerfist may get 3 attacks, taking as many init5s4 attacks or Init1s8 attacks as he wishes.

I beleive that's a suitable construct

SP1: it doesn't allow you to cheat.
SP2: it may allow to kill a body guard, then wound an HQ.

Just my thoughts.

Captain Solon wrote:hate to deny you your rules, but as for RAW, It says you must choose which weapon.

HOWEVER.

it says in our Marines codex he may trade his boltgun/pistol for any of the following.

Any makes things ambiguous.
it's not one of the following, so if you're a grammar nazi, You can use that to get 2 LC, 2 TH, 2PF (if you don't like TH, wierdo's )

RAW makes me laugh.

My Proposed rule on this:

Take three normal attacks (PW, or w/e.) then take your initiative one/special attacks as one.

in this way, a cap'n w/ a powersword and a powerfist may get 3 attacks, taking as many init5s4 attacks or Init1s8 attacks as he wishes.

I beleive that's a suitable construct

SP1: it doesn't allow you to cheat.
SP2: it may allow to kill a body guard, then wound an HQ.

Just my thoughts.

Reading the thread helps

The Gauntlets are listed as one special weapon

Yes they are but they are 2 handed as they counts as 2 single handed weapons so this either means they count as 2 weapons (for a total of 3 so the restriction doesn't hold) or they count as 1 2 handed weapon at the point of restriction and hence it doesn't hold.

FlingitNow wrote:

The Gauntlets are listed as one special weapon

Yes they are but they are 2 handed as they counts as 2 single handed weapons so this either means they count as 2 weapons (for a total of 3 so the restriction doesn't hold) or they count as 1 2 handed weapon at the point of restriction and hence it doesn't hold.

For simplicity of argument sake then it's a two handed weapon, in which it doesn't get a bonus attack. Either way he doesn't get the bonus attack.

His line item Gauntlets of Ultramar are listed as a single weapon. Only RAI can turn them into two separate single handed powerfists, otherwise in must be construed as the bonus is in his statline or they are considered a 2handed weapon.

For simplicity of argument sake then it's a two handed weapon, in which it doesn't get a bonus attack. Either way he doesn't get the bonus attack.

His line item Gauntlets of Ultramar are listed as a single weapon. Only RAI can turn them into two separate single handed powerfists, otherwise in must be construed as the bonus is in his statline or they are considered a 2handed weapon.

Yes it is a 2 handed weapon so the restriction of never getting a bonus does not apply. So you choose to use only the gauntlets which count as 2 powerfists.

What rules do you get for having 2 powerfists:

I1
double S
+1A

Seems fairly cut and dried by RaW to me.

FlingitNow wrote:

For simplicity of argument sake then it's a two handed weapon, in which it doesn't get a bonus attack. Either way he doesn't get the bonus attack.

His line item Gauntlets of Ultramar are listed as a single weapon. Only RAI can turn them into two separate single handed powerfists, otherwise in must be construed as the bonus is in his statline or they are considered a 2handed weapon.

Yes it is a 2 handed weapon so the restriction of never getting a bonus does not apply. So you choose to use only the gauntlets which count as 2 powerfists.

What rules do you get for having 2 powerfists:

I1
double S
+1A

Seems fairly cut and dried by RaW to me.

Yes, completely ignore the fact that you have had to have chosen between the Gauntlets of Ultramar and a Power Weapon, thus preventing you from getting the +1 Attack. By hey, don't let RULES get in the way of things eh?

Yes, completely ignore the fact that you have had to have chosen between the Gauntlets of Ultramar and a Power Weapon, thus preventing you from getting the +1 Attack.

What rule is this? No such rule exists that prevents someone from choosing between a 2 handed-weapon and a single handed weapon from getting the bonus attack. Please show me this rule you've just made up?

This is very exciting!

I will remind people of a couple of rules:

(A) TMIR is not allowed. (Tenets of YMDC no.7.)

(B) You can attack people's arguments but not the people themselves, and do it politely.

FlingitNow wrote:

Yes, completely ignore the fact that you have had to have chosen between the Gauntlets of Ultramar and a Power Weapon, thus preventing you from getting the +1 Attack.

What rule is this? No such rule exists that prevents someone from choosing between a 2 handed-weapon and a single handed weapon from getting the bonus attack. Please show me this rule you've just made up?

What? Does that really make any sense to you? A model using a two handed weapon never gets bonus attacks for having another weapon. If you treat it as a 2 handed weapon, then you come to the correct conclusion (That the Gauntlets do not grant a bonus attack) in the wrongest way possible. The restriction of extra attacks applies to 2 Special Weapons, regardless of how many hands they are.

FlingitNow wrote:

Yes, completely ignore the fact that you have had to have chosen between the Gauntlets of Ultramar and a Power Weapon, thus preventing you from getting the +1 Attack.

What rule is this? No such rule exists that prevents someone from choosing between a 2 handed-weapon and a single handed weapon from getting the bonus attack. Please show me this rule you've just made up?

Where are the Gauntlets described as two handed?

Sigh ... this has been cover and i'm not getting into this again but see here (click the picture) for my views on why he gets +1attacks with the powerfists ...


... there are only rules for using 2 weapons at once so if you have more use must pick them and then check the combination to see the effect.

Tri wrote:Sigh ... this has been cover and i'm not getting into this again but see here (click the picture) for my views on why he gets +1attacks with the powerfists ...
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/5/22/33904_sm-Marnues%20Calgar%2C%20Space%20Marines%2C%20Ultramarines%2C%20Wielding%203%20Weapons.jpg
... there are only rules for using 2 weapons at once so if you have more use must pick them and then check the combination to see the effect.

And as I have pointed out, the Gauntlets of Ultramar are a single weapon. He has exactly TWO weapons. The gauntlets, and a Power Weapon.