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ok so the first invite for vegas finals went out last weekend to this guy.

http://bloodofkittens.com/?p=2497

Holy wtf.

I watched that video. Honestly, I don't know what to say except that if people are letting him get away with it...then what can we complain about? If he was my opponent, a gentle first reminder about the rules turns into a stronger second reminder noting that I'm going to call the judges over if it happens again, followed by me calling a judge over to tell them that I've repeatedly asked my opponent to stop cheating and they persist.

In terms of the note on dice-cheating....exactly what does that mean? Loaded dice? I thought such things didn't really exist. I've seen the loaded craps dice, but you only get two of them and they give you a seven each time, not like sixes every time or anything.

I think a version is someone rolling the dice and quickly picking them up, declaring that they got whatever they needed (like a 6 on move through cover). That's what I'm thinking at least

I think he is very thick skinned...
or "shameless"

This is all the more motivation to qualify for the finals, just to give his army a sound beating.

All it takes is being a bigger prick than he is, within the rules.

I'm curious to see this guy try to defend how he plays.. I mean honestly, the videos don't lie. And usually a tournament organizer hears about cheating after the fact, but there is no proof.. Here we have proof. It's up to players to police their own games? Thats hard to do when you know you are being slow-played and the clock is ticking, its not always easy to hunt down a judge in a larger tournament and they don't always come to your table immediately. By then, the damage is usually done. But videos change this fact.

Should they revoke his win? Should he have to qualify again? Should he at least apologize for being a blantant cheating prick?

Should people start having a friend come along to record games in major tournaments just because of this? to provide proof? That would be pretty sad.. But this almost justifies it.

EDIT: I always suggest people bring along 2 sets of measuring sticks, cut to 6" and 12". offer a set to a guy like this.. There is no reason to use a tape measure during movement or when launching assaults unless you are moving flat out. I'd only let this guy touch his tape during the shooting phase and even then, I think I'd have to be a jerk about telling him to put it away after every shot.

Wow. What an ass.

TBH, I didn't catch all of what he was doing. Are you talking about premeasuring or slow-playing or both? Anyone care to give a quick summary?

Sets down an extended tape next to units.

Pre-measures quite a bit. Moves farther than he measures. The back models in units move to the front (warp spiders).

I also liked where he set one guy down, then when he was moving the second one he bumped the first one at least an inch further forward.

And what are the odds the wound count die on the one guy he was moving that kept falling off was always making it back to the correct number?

Aduro wrote:I also liked where he set one guy down, then when he was moving the second one he bumped the first one at least an inch further forward.

And what are the odds the wound count die on the one guy he was moving that kept falling off was always making it back to the correct number?

Given the number of times it "fell", I'd say 44%

What is sad about it. He had a brutal army from what I see. A ton of strength 6 shots and Fire Dragons.

Piss poor to act like that. The premeasuring and extra moving when adjusting squads. I would have called him on that without a doubt. Damn shame not one of those guys watching had the balls to get judge.

What's his full name?

Nathaniel (disgrace to the fine name) Williams IIRC.

Why is playing slow cheating? I'm not trying to be a smartbutt, but sometimes I play slow. But that's usually because I'm thinking what I want to do.

Doombot001 wrote:Why is playing slow cheating? I'm not trying to be a smartbutt, but sometimes I play slow. But that's usually because I'm thinking what I want to do.

If you've never played against a "slow cheater" its hard to see it in a video like this (plus there is no sound??). basically its stalling, there is a point where thinking your strategy turns into wasting time.
In a casual game i really wouldn't care if he wanted to play like this, i'd let it happen for one game, then call him out the next game, then just refuse to play him if he didn't shape up.
if you do not know what you are looking for or know him and play against him a lot of his little moves would be hard to pick up. In a tournament setting I would call him on that, just like i would expect myself to be called whether i was doing something on purpose or not.
I like this video, it shows plenty of little tricks that A LOT of people use to give themselves the smallest of upper hands. If i play a clean game, and my opponent doesn't want to, they have to live with selves not me.

Instant replay in 40k? dice cameras? like they do at poker tournaments, you have a specific area in which to roll your dice, and there is a camera on that area so a judge or other player can do back and "review" the dice rolls. i mean what a sad state of affairs for gaming....

Wtf! Within the first ten seconds of the first video, even being the novice i am, i caught him pre-measuring walkers! Seriously, i'd immediately call him out on that and every other time i saw it.

Games Workshop should be shown this footage so that they can rescind his invitation and pass it down to the next player from the tournament. They need to make an example of the kind of player that is not part of the experience they want people to have.

Alamoth wrote:Games Workshop should be shown this footage so that they can rescind his invitation and pass it down to the next player from the tournament. They need to make an example of the kind of player that is not part of the experience they want people to have.

it would be a hard sell, and this guy could cause problems because ON the video there was like twelve people standing around watching! There is nothing ON the tape that anyone attempted to stem this guys cheating ways... they just stood there and let him CHEAT. So if he really was cheating.... how come no one called him out, and we are b ing about him on the internet, in a forum.....?!

Can anyone get the asshats email and we can send him some "feedback" for his cheating.
He´d love to watch the vids of himself and read the comments I bet

hcordes wrote:

Alamoth wrote:Games Workshop should be shown this footage so that they can rescind his invitation and pass it down to the next player from the tournament. They need to make an example of the kind of player that is not part of the experience they want people to have.

it would be a hard sell, and this guy could cause problems because ON the video there was like twelve people standing around watching! There is nothing ON the tape that anyone attempted to stem this guys cheating ways... they just stood there and let him CHEAT. So if he really was cheating.... how come no one called him out, and we are b ing about him on the internet, in a forum.....?!

This. Again, its our responsibility to do something in the game we're playing.

That is just sad. Can only hope he gets what is coming to him.

If this stuff is soo obvious and soo terrible how come no one says anything.

I watched a bit of the first video and just saw him fudging some moves with the warpspiders. Thats all I really saw.

Also I used to have a shirt just like that! haha

Dashofpepper wrote:This. Again, its our responsibility to do something in the game we're playing.

Agreed. Unfortunately the people at the event didn't take action then, but they can take action now. The Seattle/Pacific-Northwest gaming community needs to own up to their responsibility and inform GW of what went on.

People don't say anything because they're sheep. With that many people standing around, they figure if no one else is going to step up then they're not either. If One person had stepped up and called the guy on it, then that breaks the ice and mob mentality kicks in, and you'd have people pointing out the stuff they've been watching him do since two turns ago. Ever seen the "What would you do?" series on one of those news shows?

Not sure about the dice thing. It looked to me like he let them lay where they were for long enough the opponent could read them.

The pre-measuring was obvious, as was the moving models back to their "close to original position".

The thing that baffles me is why he clumped everything up so much. I didn't see any template weapons but it looks to me that if he had put even 1" between models his shooters would have had range (and it's good habit I find).

*sigh* he went to my store at one point, I think he got banned before I started playing, or about a month afterwards... he doesn't come anymore :/

It certainly wasn't any of the on-lookers responsibility to stop somebody who they think is cheating. Step 1 rest with whomever his opponent is. Frankly a national or regional GT, the judge SHOULD be there for stuff like that.

FYI- Everyone was instructed that onlookers should take no part in the game and that it was the player's responsibility to call out a player if a judge is needed. Something that can be VERY hard for non confrontational people to do. I just wish that the player Nathaniel was playing would have submitted an accurate sportsmenship score or got a judge involved.

asugradinwa wrote:FYI- Everyone was instructed that onlookers should take no part in the game and that it was the player's responsibility to call out a player if a judge is needed. Something that can be VERY hard for non confrontational people to do. I just wish that the player Nathaniel was playing would have submitted an accurate sportsmenship score or got a judge involved.

Telling spectators to not get involved is fine because most major events with spectators ask the same thing. And as you stated, maybe the person doesn't want to start something. Also, requesting a judge to come and watch doesn't guarantee he will be caught or not. It only makes it so he doesn't cheat and show he is a crappy player. This is a no win situation aside from just policing our own and that really isn't a good thing.

Fateweaver wrote:Not sure about the dice thing. It looked to me like he let them lay where they were for long enough the opponent could read them.

The pre-measuring was obvious, as was the moving models back to their "close to original position".

The thing that baffles me is why he clumped everything up so much. I didn't see any template weapons but it looks to me that if he had put even 1" between models his shooters would have had range (and it's good habit I find).

I believe he was clumping the models so he could bump some forward as he moved them.

I've noticed some of this behavior in a few players before. It's been my experience that if you just call them on it a few times they'll stop.

The worst offender that I know of has actually started mending his ways. Well... at least when he plays me!