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It's a shame to me that so few marine armies include foot slog Heavy Bolters.

I propose an addition.

In addition to having the H.bolter for free in a tac squad, an H.bolter with suspensors and hellfire ammo can be purchased for +5 points.

This follows the old deathwatch kill teams profile with 2 fire modes.

18" S5 Ap4 Assault 3

or

36" S5* Ap4 Heavy 1 blast

*= always wounds on 2+ (str 5 is for vehicles)

What do you think?

I don't think standard marines should get to move and shoot a heavy bolter. I'd swing more for something like: If an enemy target is within half range, treat as twin linked. I'm not saying this is the end all be all but it holds the tactical dynamics constant while adding benefits.

Maybe allow shooting but at -2 BS; call it something cheesy like "Move and Shoot".

You have a good point.

However, I have always felt that there should be mobile options for loyalists.

The 4th ed Marine 'dex allowed for taking 2 specials per squad (Cleanse and Purify?), but the 5th ed. has no such option designed for mobility.

As a similar note, I also feel that guardsmen should have access to heavy stubbers for +10 points, which are 18" assault 3 in addition to their regular profile.
If a space marine can use a stormbolter (equivalent pintle weapon for imperial vehicles) in one hand then charge, I feel a guardsmen could use a shoulder strap and 2 hands to support a Heavy stubber on the move.

In terms of the ability being unfair to the other codexi:

Eldar can do it with ANY heavy wep. in their codex.

Orks and Nids are ALL assault weapons. (even the guns above str 6)

Chaos marines get 2 specials

Dark Eldar have the splinter cannon.

Fire warriors can use assault carbines.

Remaining codexi are less standard and don't contribute much to the discussion.

I know this could come across as 'oh poor imperium never gets ANYTHING' but it's really just a curiosity at GW's choice to restrict non Wolf loyalists from having two reliable assault weapon option in the squads.

Iboshi2 wrote:
Fire warriors can use assault carbines.

Did you mean Pulse Carbines? Because I don't feel a pulse carbine acuratly compares to a H. Bolter in any way. Most tau players wont take one as it cuts our range by 12" and removes rapid fire just for pinning. Chances are if Tau are using our carbines it's already over.

Completely broken.

What's the fluff reason for pulse carbines pinning again?

Skinnattittar wrote:What's the fluff reason for pulse carbines pinning again?

IMHO i have no idea. It's not like its silenced or long-range. I understand the pathfinders having markerlights in them due to the underslung part. But Pinning? Fluff wise I can't say but rules wise It gives us one last "OH-$H1ZZ" before we get charged.

When Tau came out, Pulse Carbines were monsters. Pair them up with Pulse Rifles, and they stopped armies in their tracks. Because back then, the more guys you lost, the lower your Leadership and fewer units had ridiculous Ld or Stubborn or Fearless. Today? In 5th Edition? Pinning is pretty "meh." So you can't move your troops, but you get a +1 to your cover saves, that's if you fail.

Skinnattittar wrote:When Tau came out, Pulse Carbines were monsters. Pair them up with Pulse Rifles, and they stopped armies in their tracks. Because back then, the more guys you lost, the lower your Leadership and fewer units had ridiculous Ld or Stubborn or Fearless. Today? In 5th Edition? Pinning is pretty "meh." So you can't move your troops, but you get a +1 to your cover saves, that's if you fail.

You can use markerlights to lower their Ld but IMO to make enough of a diifference to be reliable you need 2 lights to make you hit on a 2 then at least 3 Lights to lower Ld. Even then you have to wound & they have to fail their save. It's just not reliable enough anymore.

Pulse Carbines can get pretty nasty against certain IG armies...but that's about it. Yeah they're cool for the whole pinning thing, but like Dorian said they suffer from a drastic range reduction.

As far as Guardsmen strappin up with a Heavy Stubber, I've always pictured it as the .50cal of the 41st millenium, and as much as I HATE to do this...seems unrealistic...for a sci-fi game...that took the meaning of realism and violently sodomised it...

Pulse carbines are awful you can't pin anything worth pinning these days.

As for fluff on them causing pinning it is because they have under slung grenade launchers and the grenades make poeple duck and cover (though do absolutely no damage).

How anyone can compare a cardine to an assault Heavy bolter is beyond me. They are only a marginally better option than the Ethereal and possibly even worse than the Vespids! (The Tau codex is crammed with entirely useless options that weaken your army).

As it stands this would be a bit OP at just 5 points I'd say 15 points would be fairer and then Tac marines would be well still not as good as Grey Hunters...

FlingitNow wrote:Pulse carbines are awful you can't pin anything worth pinning these days.
As for fluff on them causing pinning it is because they have under slung grenade launchers and the grenades make poeple duck and cover (though do absolutely no damage).
How anyone can compare a cardine to an assault Heavy bolter is beyond me. They are only a marginally better option than the Ethereal and possibly even worse than the Vespids! (The Tau codex is crammed with entirely useless options that weaken your army).

You're right, we should just get rid of Tau all together.

The grenade launcher thing came from the Firewarrior game, IIRC, but does it really have a grenade launcher on it? Does it say that anywhere but from the game?

The grenade launcher thing came from the Firewarrior game, IIRC, but does it really have a grenade launcher on it? Does it say that anywhere but from the game?

Haven't got my codex with me but it certainly said that in the older codex I'm sure it must be in the new one somewhere...

You're right, we should just get rid of Tau all together.

You're American I thought you'd want the army that represents your culture in game? They just need a boost and a few things tweaked here and there and some option completely re-thought (Space Pope and Ethereals).

It's a good thing that Skinnattittar isn't in charge of GW, he'd just make everything "HURR IMPIERIAL GARD RULE HURR".

The Tau just need to become the Dogs of War of 40k.

IMO: The Heavy Bolter needs to give a -1 to Armor saves that ignore it, but it doesn't use its AP against them. So a 3+ save becomes a 4+, and a 2+ becomes a 3+.

Then it would actually be good against most armies again. It's a machine gun, for goodness sake!

Skinnattittar wrote:
The grenade launcher thing came from the Firewarrior game, IIRC, but does it really have a grenade launcher on it? Does it say that anywhere but from the game?

OT but here's your answer. Pg 29 of the Tau codex, under the heading "pulse carbine":
"The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenage launcher. Any unit suffering at least one wound from pulse carbine fires must test for pinning."

FlingitNow wrote:You're American I thought you'd want the army that represents your culture in game? They just need a boost and a few things tweaked here and there and some option completely re-thought (Space Pope and Ethereals).

A) No B) No C) JOKE! D) Lets not start a major drift off topic? General Discussion for this sort of instigation, if you please.

agnosto wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:The grenade launcher thing came from the Firewarrior game, IIRC, but does it really have a grenade launcher on it? Does it say that anywhere but from the game?

OT but here's your answer. Pg 29 of the Tau codex, under the heading "pulse carbine":
"The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an under slung photon grenade launcher. Any unit suffering at least one wound from pulse carbine fires must test for pinning."

Ah, thank you. That helps a bit explaining why the PC causes pinning, fluff wise at least.

@ Vlad : I have no problem with non-Imperial stuff, in fact I love Orks, I would like to see more ramshackle and random (but similar and equal) effects, zaniness, and other things "Orks." Eldar are great! I think their current incarnation is apt, Necrons need some tweaking, and more fear based effects (ignoring Fearless? Or making Fearless Stubborn?), Chaos I'm not happy with (if you put them in non-spiky armor and such, and use Eldar-esque models, their rules would make just as much sense. I just don't see much of their rot, decay, and insanity in their rules. They're very ordered, sane, sentient, disciplined, etc... not very Chaosy in the general sense, not just talking about Chaos Marines), and Dark Eldar I'm okay with (they need an update though).

As for solving the Heavy Bolter issue? I like the idea of an alternate fire mode of R18" Assault 3. I can see a specially armed and armored (stronger power armor) Space Marine stopping across the battlefield spraying their Heavy Bolter out at the enemy. I wouldn't hurt its BS or AP though. Make it +5pts or +10pts deal. Makes Space Marine Heavy Bolters more unique compared to other armies with Heavy Bolters.

I love Tau, played em since they came out & they were my 1st army but I'll agree we have some useless crap. Especially ethereals, I mean vespids I use as a meat shield before an assault:

Move in, shoot assault & hopefully keep one alive to my Tau get a chance to run.

CrashUSAR wrote:As far as Guardsmen strappin up with a Heavy Stubber, I've always pictured it as the .50cal of the 41st millenium, and as much as I HATE to do this...seems unrealistic...for a sci-fi game...that took the meaning of realism and violently sodomised it...

According to Codex: Armageddon, a Heavy Stubber is equivalent to an M60 machine gun-- so yes, a normal Guardsman could conceivably carry one around, and even fire it from the shoulder.

Right-o! Up until last June, I've been outta the hobby since 3rd ed. And even then it was just more painting than playing...forgive my Imperial ignorance...

Skinnattittar wrote:I can see a specially armed and armored (stronger power armor) Space Marine stopping across the battlefield spraying their Heavy Bolter out at the enemy. I wouldn't hurt its BS or AP though. Make it +5pts or +10pts deal. Makes Space Marine Heavy Bolters more unique compared to other armies with Heavy Bolters.

I miss the old Devastator design. Not the shoulder mounts, I mean the legs:



I always imagined those feets stomping across the battlefield, the weapons spewing death. That said, some sort of siege armour upgrade that gives Marines Slow and Purposeful is more along the lines of what I envisage

what about 2 profiles

Suspensored
Range 18" Str5 Ap4 Assault 2

Braced
Range 36" Str5 Ap4 heavy D3+3

would allow a move and shoot and give incentive to not move and brace the gun for increased rate of fire

Space Marines and their weapons are SUPPOSED to be the simpler to use and operate. While not necessarily a technically complex rule, less is more. Right? I think Heavy Bolters are generally fine, they don't need MORE wingdings and whirlygigs. But letting a Space Marine move and gun? Yeah, I don't see why not.

so you like my proposed rule?

No, I think its junk. Just make it R36" Heavy 3 with alternate fire of R18" Assault 3. No need to through in things like +D3 extra shots when not moving but only Assault 2 when they do. KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.

Skinnattittar wrote:No, I think its junk. Just make it R36" Heavy 3 with alternate fire of R18" Assault 3. No need to through in things like +D3 extra shots when not moving but only Assault 2 when they do. KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.

Seconded. I like the way you think!

I'll jump on the bandwagon and agree with Shinnatittar's idea!

now you have made Hbolters the same as psycannons

Grey Templar wrote:now you have made Hbolters the same as psycannons

I don't know much about the psycannons, but if they are as easy to use as what I am suggesting (or whomever suggested it first), then yes. For some additional number of points a Space Marine can upgrade his armor or to what I'll call CHWPA (pronounced 'Ch-Wah-Pa'), "Combat Heavy Weapons Power Armor," or maybe HMMWPPA (pronounced 'Hum-wip-pah'), "High Mobility Multi Weapon Platform Power Armor." This will allow the Marine to continue firing, even while on the move.

CHWPA/HMMWPPA Equipped Marine with Heavy Bolter:
R36"/18" S5 AP4 Heavy 3/Assault 3

Missile Launcher:
R48"/24" (S, AP, and Blast features as normal) Heavy 1/Assault 1

Lascannon: Due to the high energy demands of the Lascannon, no benefit is received.
Plasma Cannon: Due to the high energy demands of the Plasma Cannon, no benefit is received.

IMO lascannons should be able to move and fire too

laser weapons have no "kick" per say while missile weapons do

in real life anyway


fluff wise, psycannons are heavy bolters with suspensors which fire bolt rounds made out of "pure silver" resulting in a Str of 6 and the ignoring of invulns