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Something odd happened to me in a game against Marines: A vindicator took out my monolith on the first turn.

Now, I realize the chance of this happening is pretty slim, but against this player's list I was absolutely screwed as a result, because my opponent's 3 dreads made my life very difficult.

I managed to take out the vindicator from the side with destroyers but I had no reasonable way of getting behind the dreads to finish them. My only other anti-vehicle unit was my destroyer lord, and he's more of a transport/vindicator hunter than something that's supposed to fight walkers.

So I'm trying to figure out how to revise my list, and I don't know if I should try to include some Heavy Destroyers to have a nice tank-busting, AP2 backup unit if my monolith bites the dust for some reason. I had a lot of trouble taking out his troops because I didn't have anything lower than AP4 aside from my Lord, who dutifully wiped out a couple combat squads before falling to a dreadnought who I couldn't seem to even glance.

So I'm trying to figure out if I should take some Disruption Fielded scarabs as an escort for my lord, or if instead I should make some room for Heavy Destroyers to help with my vehicle problems.

Moreover, since I was so disappointed with my immortals at 1500 points I think I'll cut them so I can run a full 10 destroyers. They were indispensable even if they felt a little vulnerable.

You sound like you're trying to build my Necron army. Anymore I tend to run a good ten Destroyer and six Heavy Destroyers.

You could always try Tomb Spyders? They aid your survival, whilst chinning big stuff. Plus at T6 they are relativel resilient, with a Dreadnought need several hits to take it out.

Yeah a T. Spyder that creates a scarab swarm has two wounds it can "give away" and when its your turn to swing hopefully you take it out or at least immobilze/weapon destroy it. First thing I would get is Ctan. Either one can smash walkers easily as well as vehicles that stumble into their range. If the vehicle is moving 12" to play keep away, it is not shooting. Fast eldar boats you just have to suck it up and do te best you can, but they also dont have the weaponry to take out your monlith.
H. Destroyers will work fine, but be forewarned, they attract a lot of fire and are usually the first to go.

I had a guy pop my monolith with a LASCANNON first turn before... s*** happens sometimes lol.

Yeah, things like this can happen (albeit not often) that'll totally screw up your plans (Especially when it's a Monolith you're talking about).

Anways, my thoughts on some of a Monolih't potential "replacements":

Scarab Swarms: Realistically, these aren't much more reliable than warriors/destroyers for taking out vehicles...yeah, they can turbo-boost for a 2+ cover save, but if they get into CC with a (Non-walker) vehicle, they can get taken out SO EASILY the next turn by regular shooting, often getting ID'd, templated (2X wounds), or just being denied their 5+ armor. Going against walkers they get ID'd as well... Also, if your taking lots of scarabs, that's less room for destroyers (which you said you took lots of, as I do, because their good, IMO a better choice for that FA slot)

Tomb Spiders/C'tan: Tomb Spiders are DECENT at killing lower armored vehicles (still need a 8+ on 2D6 to hurt AV14 though...), and C'tan can do a lot of damage (Strength 8/9 depending on which one, PLUS 2D6 and a lot of attacks, you'll get a lot of good hits), but the problems with both of these are they are VERY slow for tank busting. Even with running, any vehicle can outrun them, and (especially C'tan) they are large targets that don't get WBB, and end up costing a lot, and if they get shot to peices before hitting assault, their large point sink is in vain.

Massed Guass (Immortals/Destroyers): Like I said above, about as destructive as scarabs against vehicles, but these can do so from range and possibly cover, so they are often your only/best option to take down tanks (Especially late-game when lots of other units are already dead).

Now, onto the Heavy Destroyers: Simply put: Take them! They are literally moving lascannons, and are pretty much the only Shooting weapon that can get past 2+ armor saves. That said, they are very expensive and fragile, so they're more of a "Once you learn to use them well and keep them alive they're good" type of unit. I definately recommend them, I've ran lists with 3, 6, and even tried the full 9 of them! Of course, if your not careful, you can easily lose that huge investment, but it's all about being smart when it comes to heavy destroyers...

Of course, you technically could add another monolith in the list for more anti-tank, but it's really dependent on your personal playstyle...

Oh, make no mistake. I'm not trying to replace the Monolith with anything. If anything I'm considering adding a second one at 1500.

It's just that it seems that there are certain weaknesses I have when compared to other armies. The game I mentioned in the OP was seize ground, and although we each had only two troop choices, we rolled 5 bjectives and it was easy for his 4 combat squads to hold objectives - especially since I lost my main means of troop disposal after whiffing against the vindicator in the first turn. I wish to remedy this by making my army better at handling these situations, because I play against a lot of MEQ.

In any case, I think scarabs might be the better option. They'll extend the shelf life of my Lord, and the extra destroyers have been pretty indispensable compared to the immortals who haven't been impressing me at this point level.

I think I'd take them at 1000, and anything greater than 1750, but I think once I hit 1500 it's more important to have all these destroyers.

I am seriously considering the deciever for an HQ, however. And I never tried using a tomb spyder, so I'll have to consider it. They seem kind of expensive, and do I really want to be risking the wound by making scarabs?

scarabs with the lord are a big mistake, i could easily charge that unit, wipe out 5 scarab bases (15 wounds) and your lord is rolling double 1's or he running away with a low initiative.

Another thing you could consider is to Deep strike them in. It would certainly help with them not dying on the first turn.

I have NO experience either playing with or against Necrons, so take it as a grain of salt.

Ostrakon wrote:Something odd happened to me in a game against Marines: A vindicator took out my monolith on the first turn.

Now, I realize the chance of this happening is pretty slim,

It's not that weird for a Vindicator to take out a Monolith mainly because there are not many better options for killing one. I may be reading your meaning incorrectly, but if not, then you need to stay mindful of this threat in the future...especially in higher point games where opponents will run 2 Vindicators.

If a Vindicator gets a blast dead center on the Monolith then there is basically a 33% chance of it not getting a direct hit. After that, the SM player has a 55% chance of penetrating the vehicle and then a 33% chance of destroying it. You can't ask for better odds...except for multiple TL railgun shots.

At the risk of sounding patronizing: It sounds like you haven't played a ton of games with Necrons so I'll point out that the Particle Whip is a great armor killer. It is my reliable Land Raider popper. I also use the NB and 2 Heavy Destroyers at 1850, which gives me 2-3 Str 9 shots...which isn't a lot. But I'm ok between maneuvering for side armor with Destroyers, hitting transports with the HDs, and popping AV 14 with the Monolith.

If you take the Tomb Spyder then here's an effective way to use it imo: Make one Scarab Swarm and stop. You could then put the little guy in cover and have covering saves for the unit...I realize I just swatted at a hornet's nest with that one but I'm sticking by it . Regardless of any ongoing debates, the swarm forces your opponent to shoot against toughness 6 while you dump the wounds on the swarm. Once it's dead, make another swarm. I've seen another Necron player use this tactic with success.

Taking Scarab Swarms is good if you do the Bugzapper Lord (lightning field, destroyer body, etc.). It's great against non assault specialists or most depleted infantry units. But as dayve110 pointed out, you can't risk the chance of getting counter-charged by a half to full strength assault unit.

All that said, I recommend using Heavy Destroyers because they are good unit, albeit not a great unit. They will definitely have purpose on the battlefield with their mobility and high strength weapons, but mine shoot as if they had BS 3

This interesting because I would also recommend heavy destroyers, but I don’t know anyone who played them in 3rd or 4th edition. I don’t know that they are really good as much as they are the best option remaining. A horde of warriors glancing on 6’s and blowing up on 6’s used to make short work of any tank, the higher the armor the better. It’s interesting to see how the army comp changes over time.

Eight Ball wrote:Tomb Spiders/C'tan: Tomb Spiders are DECENT at killing lower armored vehicles (still need a 8+ on 2D6 to hurt AV14 though...), and C'tan can do a lot of damage (Strength 8/9 depending on which one, PLUS 2D6 and a lot of attacks, you'll get a lot of good hits), but the problems with both of these are they are VERY slow for tank busting.

Pardon me. Which C Tan is strength 8?

Davicus wrote:

Eight Ball wrote:Tomb Spiders/C'tan: Tomb Spiders are DECENT at killing lower armored vehicles (still need a 8+ on 2D6 to hurt AV14 though...), and C'tan can do a lot of damage (Strength 8/9 depending on which one, PLUS 2D6 and a lot of attacks, you'll get a lot of good hits), but the problems with both of these are they are VERY slow for tank busting.

Pardon me. Which C Tan is strength 8?

Whoops, meant Strength 9/10 (9 for Deciever, 10 for NightBringer, both Toughness 8 probably why I got confused...)

NidMaster40000 wrote:Another thing you could consider is to Deep strike them in. It would certainly help with them not dying on the first turn.

Generally, I don't consider this a good option. Deepstriking scarab swarms arrive in a tight clump, cannot run and cannot assault. So, the first turn they arrive, they are useless, likely have no cover save, and a perfect target for template weapons. If you just "walk on" you can turbo-boost half-way across the board, getting a 2+ cover and be spread out. Normally, I'll start a game with scarabs somewhere on the board. Either out of range or half in cover if the opponent has first shot with template weapons.

One time I can remember deepstriking scarabs. It was an annihilation, spearhead deployment against the Eldar. The opponent set up some dark reapers towards the middle of his side that could reach much of the way into my zone. He had no blast weapons. The reapers were having modest impact while I shot up his approaching army with destroyers kept moving away. Then 8 or so scarabs deepstruck right behind his reapers. At that point he just quit. Next turn he was going to lose the reapers, leaving my army a bolthole to run from his line while the destroyers shot up his troops. Oh, there was impassible terrain I was maneuvering around and he was covering that bolthole area, which had no cover, with the reapers. If the scarabs had been late, it likely would have gotten ugly for me.

Yeah, I think I'm going to revise my 1500 list to cut the Immortals and replace them with 5 scarabs and 4 more destroyers. As a result with only 20 Warriors hanging back foot-slogging, I might as well cut my orb lord for something. I guess I could field either 2 heavy destroyers, or 2 tomb spyders and an extra scarab.

I dunno if I really want the TS though, his statline is so unimpressive that I just know he's going to accomplish nothing before dying. WS2, BS2 seems like the particle projector would be useless, and he's slow so I don't exactly see him accomplishing much in melee before being shot to death. I'll have to try the 'spawn 1 scarab at a time' tactic to extend his shelf life but it will definitely require some playtesting.

I have found tomb spyders to be effective against non-hoard generic troops. With a scarab swarm tagging along prior to the assault they have 5 wounds at toughness 6. I've mainly used one to tarpit a group going after my warriors, but if you don't take a particle gun, you'll have a few chances to dismember something. With the swarm still alive, that's 6 attacks where only half get saves. Against anything that's really good the spyder will be dispatched before it does much damage. Hmmm, I just realized, that if you get one included in a hoard -vs- warrior assault that if the warriors bolt for the hills, the hoard won't be able to pursue if they're tied up with the fearless spyder. Of course, the spyder will then have to make a bunch of saves.

PrivatePanic wrote:I have found tomb spyders to be effective against non-hoard generic troops. With a scarab swarm tagging along prior to the assault they have 5 wounds at toughness 6. I've mainly used one to tarpit a group going after my warriors, but if you don't take a particle gun, you'll have a few chances to dismember something. With the swarm still alive, that's 6 attacks where only half get saves. Against anything that's really good the spyder will be dispatched before it does much damage. Hmmm, I just realized, that if you get one included in a hoard -vs- warrior assault that if the warriors bolt for the hills, the hoard won't be able to pursue if they're tied up with the fearless spyder. Of course, the spyder will then have to make a bunch of saves.

Sounds like a valid tactic to me, I'll have to try it. That way I could try to use Tomb Spyders to protect my warriors and try to take objectives more aggressively.

I played a guy three times, the only anti tank he had was 2 multi-melta's on Land Speeders, every single time I played him he destroyed the monolith on the first turn with these!!

phantommaster wrote:I played a guy three times, the only anti tank he had was 2 multi-melta's on Land Speeders, every single time I played him he destroyed the monolith on the first turn with these!!

Wait, meltas don't get an extra penetration dice. A given melta shot from BS4 has a 1/54 chance of actually taking a monolith out.

Yeah, that was before we realised the ap1 meant you add one to the damage table result, not the armour penetration.