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Hey all,

Ran into this problem when I went to a friend's LFGS when I was visiting on for a tourny. A bunch of the players had cut the clear stands for things like Wave Serpents, Devilfish, Hammerheads, etc.... So much so that they were barely off the ground and Blocked LOS to models behind them. I was under the impression that with a standard vehicle in a tourny that you are not allowed to modify the stands in a standard tournment like an RTT, Adepticon and such. It definately gave the locals an advantage as my friends Eldar could be seen when disembarking and his opponent couldn't. Any input?

If it was against the tourney rules, well there you go.

The rulebook, however, says you must mount the model on the base it came with. It doesn't specify you need to use the same stand, as well. And that would be awful. Because those feeble clear pegs are terrible.

Modeling for advantage. If fact not even modeling just modifying bases, big no no as the have to play it right if you mention it.
*shrugs*
Dirty.

DaOrkz1977 wrote: I was under the impression that with a standard vehicle in a tourny that you are not allowed to modify the stands in a standard tournment like an RTT, Adepticon and such.

That would really depend on the tournie, and what rules it was using.

The normal rules of 40K say that models should be mounted on the base with which they are provided. Modifying the base requires opponent's consent. There are no rules allowing you to alter the models in any other way (although that of course leads to arguments over what constitutes building the model 'correctly' and what constitutes a conversion)...

But if the Tournament organiser is allowing modified bases, then that's his call. He's the one you need to take it up with.

Its legal, and common. Modeling them lower is both an advantage, and a disadvantage.


With them lower he can not shoot under them (ala fish of fury) And also he will not be able to get LoS from his guns to targets he otherwise could.

Ya, I figured that they had to use the stand that they came with. The big deal came when my friend opponent moved 4 transports and positioned in such a way that he unloaded his transports out of the back of the transports, think they were like Howling Banshees or maybe Warlocks, but had a castle of transports blocking LOS to the big circle in the middle. Then on the next turn, moved the transports out and assualted. Now if it was a cover save issue thing it would not have been a big deal, but he was told that since he couldn't see the models because of the way the transports were mounted that he didn't get to shoot at them. This to me was a big pile of you know what. When it came to me playing it wasn't a big deal because I had a ton of LasCannons and I shot them out of the air before he even got close, but my friends army was geared for assualt and short range shooting, so it really messed him up.

insaniak wrote:
The normal rules of 40K say that models should be mounted on the base with which they are provided. Modifying the base requires opponent's consent. There are no rules allowing you to alter the models in any other way (although that of course leads to arguments over what constitutes building the model 'correctly' and what constitutes a conversion)...

I'd just like to point out that the rules don't say they cannot play with modified bases, just that they must make sure that "their opponent does not mind this". The rules are silent on what to do if they mind...

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:

insaniak wrote:
The normal rules of 40K say that models should be mounted on the base with which they are provided. Modifying the base requires opponent's consent. There are no rules allowing you to alter the models in any other way (although that of course leads to arguments over what constitutes building the model 'correctly' and what constitutes a conversion)...

I'd just like to point out that the rules don't say they cannot play with modified bases, just that they must make sure that "their opponent does not mind this".

Isn't that what I said?

The rules are silent on what to do if they mind...

Not use those models, would be the obvious implication.

ChrisCP wrote:Modeling for advantage. If fact not even modeling just modifying bases, big no no as the have to play it right if you mention it.
*shrugs*
Dirty.

As someone who plays with a Squat IG army, I can confidently say that any modelling which changes the height, size, etc of your models has just as many disadvantages as advantages.

As long as he doesn't change bases during the game I see no problem with it.

ArbitorIan wrote:
As someone who plays with a Squat IG army, I can confidently say that any modelling which changes the height, size, etc of your models has just as many disadvantages as advantages.

As long as he doesn't change bases during the game I see no problem with it.

Agree with this in part. I play a Genestealer Cultist army, using the Tyranid rules. The advantages are on a very even footing with the problems. And as long as I try to model in a reasonably appropriate scale none of my opponents have had any grief with me, and what few boni I might get from my odd model size is quite balanced by the drawbacks. For reference, I don't try to use a a stealer magus on a 25mm-base as my counts-as-Terrorfex, I rather use that magus on an elevated base as a Zoanthrope. (fun fact, I can squeeze Frateris Milita models much tighter than I can Termagaunts because less parts stick outside the base. This means I can squeeze more models into a melee, and it means I take more hits from blasts and template weapons)

I am aware that I could use modelling to my advantage by for example building extra large counts-as-hormagaunts, to give coversaves to extra small counts-as-monstrous-creatures. Not only would this be against the rules, it would also be extremely silly, because I honestly do not need to win at a game of miniatures that badly. In a similar vein, I know some of my tyranid plaing colleagues that make sure to re-angle gargoyles and their wings, so that they can give cover saves to MCs. Realy ugly practice.

In the OPs case it seems apparent that his opponent had a tactic that was based around these modified bases. a tactic that would not work as well (or maybe at all) if they had been on the original bases. That is truly despiccable. My first suggestion would be to not play against such idiots. If you are in a tournament, and thus would loose a lot more by refusing to play, ask the umpires there to clarify how the situation should be solved. And if neccessary, suggest they update the tournament rules set after the event, so that it becomes clear on the subject.

The INAT FAQ3.1, found here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/237519.page

says, under Gen.01

"Q: Can players convert their models in order to gain an advantage in the game? For example, making tiny models to hide behind scenery, longer barrels on their vehicles to increase the range of their weapons, using shorter/taller flying bases for their models then those supplied, etc?
A: Players may only convert their models for aesthetic purposes. Any players, in the opinion of the Tournament organizers/judges, who have converted their models specifically to gain a gameplay advantage, may be penalized at the whim of the Tournament Organizer. These penalties can be as little as playing the game acting as if the suspect model is the proper dimensions, all the way up to immediate ejection from the tournament [clarification]. When in doubt, always check with the tournament organizer before the tournament begins and then discuss the issue again with each of your opponents before the game starts.
Ref: RB.22A.02"

So even that, leaves it up to a judgement call. Being a "friendly" game, that's pretty cheap though.

Are you sure that it was a modified flight stand? Most large vehicles come with a really short stick.

Falconlance wrote:If it was against the tourney rules, well there you go.

The rulebook, however, says you must mount the model on the base it came with. It doesn't specify you need to use the same stand, as well. And that would be awful. Because those feeble clear pegs are terrible.

So what do you do with models that are not out yet like The Harpy or the Tervigon. Oh how about winged tyrants and winged warriors? Or here is one as well remove the slot base for Genestealers and mount them on their knees scuttling forward. Modeling for advantage is not cheating but it is being an A$$.

Not to cast doubts, but are you sure the flight stems were modified. Having built 2 extensive Marine armies, both with a fair contingent of LS, as well as dabbling with a Saim-Hann army, I know for a fact in my bits box there are three different lengths of flight stems.

The original Eldar Jetbikes came with a stem about an inch long and a second a bit longer, about 1 1/4 of an inch. The LS then came out with 2 stems, the shorter one was 1 1/4 and the longer was a bit past 1 1/2 inches. If the really short stems were used on a larger vehicle, it would definitely give them a low profile. A DE player actually snagged a handful of the 1 inch ones so his Raiders were not so high COG and therefore less prone to tipping.

Just a thought.

My Wave Serpent came with a flight stick that's about 16mm or so, or about 2/3rds of an inch.

I know for a fact in my bits box there are three different lengths of flight stems.

Well I'm aware of at least 4 different stems. As a Tau player Drones and Battlesuits come with 2 stems one about an inch and a quarter the other an inch and a half. The tanks and piranhas come with 2 stems one 3/4 of an inch the other 1/2 an inch. It would make sense for there to have been an inch one but maybe that got phased out and on newer models they use the taller ones now?

On my tanks I always use the taller stands though (and mix in some of the shorter ones for drones. I do this so the tanks look like they are flying otherwise with their landing gear they may as well be on the ground... This gives me the advantage that 'Fish of fury still works (not that I generally use it) as my FWs can see under my tanks. But it also means there is no where for my tanks to hide as my Hammerheads have the same thing. No one has ever complained, but as i don't glue the flying stands on (because then they always break) I could always switch them if someone did have a problem or a Tournament demanded it.

To be honest it sounds like the model was using the normal stem it came with.

Apologies for being obtuse, but surely as a skimmer it can theoretically exist at any altitude so surely any stem size can be used? On a related note, what about models that have none / broken flying bases? For example, I got a Falcon off ebay and the flight base is damaged - I dont bother using a flying base, just place the model on the table as if it were a regular tank - is there an issue with that?

Doesn't the sprue with the flying pegs come with multiple heights on it? So every flying base comes with multiple pegs? We don't even have rules for mandatory correct base sizes let alone correct flying base heights for skimmers.

As long as the height isn't changing midgame then I don't think anyone has a legitimate gripe to complain as they are following the rules.

The only two rules are 'MOUNTED' (no changing bases mid game) and 'BASE IT CAME WITH' which includes all the various heights.

If they want to sit lower and lose LOS over units and have more enemies get cover from it's shots, then they can block LOS to the troops behind by denying underneath shooting. It works both ways.

We all know about crawling crab carnifexes and crouching wraithlords, but this situation is no where close to that IMHO.

There is 4 heights of the standard flight stands, 2 shorter and two taller. When all are placed side by side it goes up and an even rate. The smallest, that is typically supplied with eldar tanks, can block LoS pretty easily. The tallest can give a clear LoS to most stuff. Then you take into account if anyone magnetized their stuff and the range can change even further.

I saw an Imperial Guard player who put ALL of his troopers firing out of sandbag foxholes.

They had no legs, and no trooper was much taller than an inch high.

THAT is modelling for advantage, and he got tossed from a local tourney. It did look neat, though.

filbert wrote:Apologies for being obtuse, but surely as a skimmer it can theoretically exist at any altitude so surely any stem size can be used? On a related note, what about models that have none / broken flying bases? For example, I got a Falcon off ebay and the flight base is damaged - I dont bother using a flying base, just place the model on the table as if it were a regular tank - is there an issue with that?

This is the world of wargamers.

The first edition Piranhas had a flight stand with a flexible joint so you could pose the model like this / or like this --. Meaning the models could be reposed during play to shield a unit behind them.

This is as much within the letter of the rules as putting a Piranha on an inflexible metal stand of the same height would be outside the letter of the rules.

There are times when people need to lighten up and play the fething game as a game, not as a rerun of US Senate Investigatory Subcommittee no.17 on the conduct of the war.

40K is simply not well written and built enough (in terms of models) to make it bullet proof.

And what about not putting a base on a devilfish, just using the landing gear? My friend did this from the start and I don't see how it's any different any other non-skimmer transport providing block LoS... even with the stem, you could angle the prow down to block LoS and I think that full tilt forward look would be cool and wouldn't even think about the meta game ability to block LoS

I'm not sure about the height of the stand but i know you're not allowed to alter the base diameter. Some models, like canis wolfborn, would be made much better than they normally are on a bigger base.

Canis already comes on a 60mm base, the only available improvement is the Valkyrie base.

InquisitorFabius wrote:Canis already comes on a 60mm base, the only available improvement is the Valkyrie base.

What's more, the codex actually explicitly forbids you placing him on a larger base.