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I have to questions about some of the new psychic powers available to the Tyranids thanks to the new codex.

1. Your Hive Tyrant deep strikes and you are playing a mech IG or SM army and you are surrounded by transports, and you decide use the power Psychic Scream, what happens? Would you be able to effect any units inside of the transports? I know you can't target units with a shooting attack when they are in a transport, and there the same should apply for psychic shooting attacks...but this one doesn't target any units, it just says all units within a certain distance.

2. Would the Tervigon be able to use the psychic power Catalyst on himself? The rules states any friendly with in 12", and as far as I can figure he's a friendly and he's within 12" of him self so it should be ok.

Let me know what you guys think, and if there is anything in the BRB to back you up let me know because that would be most helpful.

1. PS attacks cannot affect embarked units. FAQ sorted that one out

2. Yes, he is within 12" of himself. Yes, this is horrid!

hahaha, what do you mean it's horrid? I don't have a Tyranid army myself but thats pretty awesome if you can give a Tervigon feel no pain, he might never die!

Yeah Nosferatu is right, scream is a psychic shooting attack and therefore cannot effect embarked models. Yes the Tervigon can catalyse himself. Though I am less convinced of the benefits of this as most of the weapons aiming at him will ignore FnP...

But it can mean you can't just throw volume of fire at him as that way you'd basically never kill him.

I mean its horrid as a T6 creature with 6 wounds having FNP makes it rock hard to kill. Sniper rifles, usually gold for killing MC, just suck against it

BUt tervigons are rock hard anyway - a MC troops choice that spits out shooting units? Fabulous

nosferatu1001 wrote:I mean its horrid as a T6 creature with 6 wounds having FNP makes it rock hard to kill. Sniper rifles, usually gold for killing MC, just suck against it

BUt tervigons are rock hard anyway - a MC troops choice that spits out shooting units? Fabulous

Until you fire Wraithcannon at it

Or I run my GK Grand Master up to it.

My experience is that most of the fire coming the way of a MC tends to be AP2 or better, so ignores FNP.

Hmm, maybe crak missiles and autocannons are two good exceptions. So against an AC I'd get both a 3+ armor, and a 4+ FNP. That would mean 9 hits per inflicted wound, so quite a lot of guardsmen shooting. Well, by applying FNP to your tervigon you can sort of force your opponent to shoot at easier targets with ACs.

Erm, sniper rifles rending will ignore his FnP. But it is good if your opponent has loaded up on ML's.

To the OP (and i'm surprised Gwar! missed this):

Not part of the question, but the Hive Tyrant/Wings cannot deepstrike in this codex. He can only move like jump infantry, he does not become jump infantry nor does he gain the 'deep strike' ability.

Weaksauce, i know.

tetrisphreak wrote:To the OP (and i'm surprised Gwar! missed this):

Not part of the question, but the Hive Tyrant/Wings cannot deepstrike in this codex. He can only move like jump infantry, he does not become jump infantry nor does he gain the 'deep strike' ability.

Weaksauce, i know.

Good Point. I'm surprised I missed it too.

A HT Cannot Deep Strike under normal 40k rules.

You would think that a 60-point upgrade would have allowed that via a special rule, too. Sometimes i wonder just how much GW playtests their codices.

A normal HT can take a spore pod, it's just the special character one that can't.

edit: Just double checked, turns out I am totally wrong here, not sure where I got that idea from.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you guys, the simple reason being the codex clearly states that units with wings:

"move in the same way as jump infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40K rule book" pg. 84 - Tyranid Codex, Biomorph Upgrades, Wings

Now if you go to the BRB and look up Jump Infantry you only have to read the section titled Movement. At the very bottom of the section titled movement it clearly states:

"all jump infantry units may enter the battle by 'deep strike' " pg. 52 - BRB, Jump Infantry, Movement

Now I know some people will feel the need to argue that rules as written says that models with wings only 'move' in the same way as jump infantry. But if you would continue reading you would see that it also clearly states that in order to know how this is done you have to read the section which describes the movement of Jump Infantry. And under this section, which is jump infantry movement, which is where the Tyranid codex tells you to go, it clearly states that you are allowed to deep strike. You can't separate the movement section of jump infantry into two parts and just follow the parts you agree with and not allow the parts you don't, not if you are following the rules as they are written.

Also, on a side note, Tetris made a great point. Even if we look at this with a rules as intended point or view, I think the fact that the upgrade is 60pts more than qualifies you to allow the tyrant to deep strike. I'm afraid that no matter how you look at this, if you think about it correctly, wings allow you to deep strike with out a doubt.

This has been argued multiple times Regdar, and you are probably best not going over it in this thread.

check here for the full debate, I doubt you will still feel you have anything new to bring to the discussion because it was pretty exhaustive.

hahaha, my bad Drunkspleen. I didn't even realize that this topic had been debated so fiercely. I'm glad how ever that in the end the final ruling agreed with me and for the exact reasons I presented.

Not part of the question, but the Hive Tyrant/Wings cannot deepstrike in this codex. He can only move like jump infantry, he does not become jump infantry nor does he gain the 'deep strike' ability.

Sadly mistaken he can move like jump infantry. Hence all legal moves by jump infantry can be made by the Hive Tyrant. So yes it can deepstrike.

Please look in the rulebook pg 52 top heading is Jump Infantry and it has a nice sub-heading called movement all those rules apply to anything with wings. Including the smaller heading fall back moves.

The exact quote is "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by 'deep strike' as explained on page 95" - pg. 52

I would like the exact quote from the Codex where it says the Tyrant is a jump infantry unit.

The exact quote is "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by 'deep strike' as explained on page 95" - pg. 52

I would like the exact quote from the Codex where it says the Tyrant is a jump infantry unit.

What is your point?

Do Tyrants with wings not fall back 3d6"?

"Jump infantry fall back 3d6""

Or move 12" in the movement phase:

"Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and and move up to 12" in the movement phase."

Or ignore terrain:

"When using jump packs, they can move over all other models and terrain freely."

Why single out the part that allows deepstrike movement as the bit you don't think applies?

Can jump uinfantry make a deepstrike move?
Can a Flyrant move like jump infantry?

So your say they don't count as jump infantry just move like them? Is it specifially saying the can move like jump infantry or is it specifically saying they count as jump infantry (therefore could move like them too).

So your say they don't count as jump infantry just move like them? Is it specifially saying the can move like jump infantry or is it specifically saying they count as jump infantry (therefore could move like them too).

No they don't count as jump infantry they simply move as them. This any moves open to jump infantry aew open to Tyrants with wings. Fortunately this is nicely enclosed on pg 52 of the BRB under the title movement...

ChrisCP wrote:The exact quote is "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by 'deep strike' as explained on page 95" - pg. 52

I would like the exact quote from the Codex where it says the Tyrant is a jump infantry unit.

Chris,

The entire section of rules for Jump Infantry is written using the terminology of "Jump Infantry can XXX..." because it is the rules for Jump Infantry.


However, a Tyrant with wings moves as Jump Infantry. What does that mean? That means any rules regarding moving a Jump Infantry model therefore apply to the Hive Tyrant.

So when the Jump Infantry rules say:

"Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivilant) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase."

In this case we're essentially replacing the term 'Jump Infantry' with 'Hive Tyrant' (as he moves as Jump Infantry). So we have:

"A Hive Tyrant with wings can use [its] jump packs (wings in this case) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase."


Likewise, the rules for Jump Infantry Deep Striking are found in the section called "MOVEMENT" in the Jump Infantry section, so there should be no confusion that Deep Striking with Jump Infantry is considered a rule for movement.

So when it says:

"All Jump Infantry units may enter the battle by 'Deep Strike', as explained on page 95."

Again, with the Hive Tyrant in this case (as he moves as Jump Infantry) it says:

"A Hive Tyrant with wings may enter the battle by 'Deep Strike', as explained on page 95."



That's exactly how something 'moving as' something else works. You read the rules for that alternate movement type and then the unit that 'moves as' the alternate type then follows those rules as if he was the alternate unit type.

I believe a winged HT do not "count as" jump infantry, because that could lead to other rules incoherencies by being both jump infantry and monstrous creature at the same time. So they just "move as" jump infantry. Such as: deep strike, 3d6 fall back, special handling of terrain, up to 12" distance in the movement phase.

I believe a winged HT do not "count as" jump infantry, because that could lead to other rules incoherencies by being both jump infantry and monstrous creature at the same time. So they just "move as" jump infantry. Such as: deep strike, 3d6 fall back, special handling of terrain, up to 12" distance in the movement phase.

Exactly if the wings changed the Tyrant to jump infantry then it'd get cover saves like normal infantry but would not have power weapon attacks or cause 2d6 pen. It would just be a mess.



yakface

Again I heartedly agree

yakface wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:The exact quote is "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by 'deep strike' as explained on page 95" - pg. 52

I would like the exact quote from the Codex where it says the Tyrant is a jump infantry unit.

However, a Tyrant with wings moves as Jump Infantry. What does that mean? That means any rules regarding moving a Jump Infantry model therefore apply to the Hive Tyrant.

So when the Jump Infantry rules say:

"Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivilant) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase."

In this case we're essentially replacing the term 'Jump Infantry' with 'Hive Tyrant' (as he moves as Jump Infantry). So we have:

"A Hive Tyrant with wings can use [its] jump packs (wings in this case) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase."

Excellent thank-you. This actually gets around the problem I have with deepstrike never being mentiond as movment in movement or a type of movement. We are only told it occurs during the movment phase - to call it movement would be to call all psychic attacks that occour in the shooting phase shooting unless specified otherwise, which is the opposite of what one does.
I was having trouble accepting logical fallacy of 'calling' deep movment as justification for the strike being permissable.


@fling it now, if you had quoted well and not asked rhetorical questions you would have been able to adress the issue in a way that would have establish your correctness beyond doubt, instead of 'your wrong' 'your wrong and here is no reason why' which while may not have been your intent it was certainly how it felt.

This actually gets around the problem I have with deepstrike never being mentiond as movment in movement or a type of movement.

pg 95 of the rulebook:

"In the movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move further" (stress added by me)

"They are too disrupted by their deep strike move." (again stress added by me).

@fling it now, if you had quoted well and not asked rhetorical questions you would have been able to adress the issue in a way that would have establish your correctness beyond doubt, instead of 'your wrong' 'your wrong and here is no reason why' which while may not have been your intent it was certainly how it felt.

If you notice Yak used the same quotes as me, I just credited you with enough inteligence to work it out for yourself, which Yak didn't.

You claim that DSing with wings was not allowed as if stone cold fact when RaI is so obvious that it is and even RAW states that it is, you can expect people to not treat your comments with too much seriousness.

If I offended you then I apologise as that was not my intention.

Wow now I'm really offended Omg like couched insults while you are making the motions of an apology.

I never claimed anything, I provided a quote and asked for some help undestanding it in referance to a rule I haven't read in person.

As for the deepstike problem, running for example in itself says "running movement" pg 16.

Where as deepstrike only says a move, now I warhammer these two words have different applications as one can move things that are dissallowed movement if forced to by a special rule, re models off the table are allow to come on from reserves once using the special reserves rule same for deepstrike. The reserves rule specficall mentions "move onto the table" where if a unit is immobile for example it must deepstrike as to do otherwise would constitue movement.

I can't explain my position on the issue better than that at the moment due to time constraints - sorry.

The reserves rule specficall mentions "move onto the table" where if a unit is immobile for example it must deepstrike as to do otherwise would constitue movement.

No if it is immobile it can't deepstirke either as that is still movement. This is why pods (and spores) only become immobile after they have arrived by DS.

Where as deepstrike only says a move, now I warhammer these two words have different applications as one can move things that are dissallowed movement if forced to by a special rule

No, you are getting confused the difference is between things that can't "move" but can still "be moved". This is to do with voluntary actions vs involuntary action not movement being different to moving.

Urgh, not this again.

Look, a HT Cannot Deep Strike. Rules Change, get over it.

Look, a HT Cannot Deep Strike. Rules Change, get over it.

I'm well aware rules change but a HT can still deepstrike if it has wings that is what the rules say. That is RAW, RAI and every other sensible interpretation of the rules.

You bleating it doesn't just because you don't want it to doesn't changes the rules.