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Gwar! wrote:Urgh, not this again.

Look, a HT Cannot Deep Strike. Rules Change, get over it.

...except it can by the rules as written in many people's opinion, myself included.

FlingitNow wrote:

Look, a HT Cannot Deep Strike. Rules Change, get over it.

I'm well aware rules change but a HT can still deepstrike if it has wings that is what the rules say. That is RAW, RAI and every other sensible interpretation of the rules.

You bleating it doesn't just because you don't want it to doesn't changes the rules.

Lol. No, RaW is that he cannot Deep Strike

Stealth edit there Gwar, did you by any chance change it because initially it stated that yakface said they cannot deepstrike, which was wrong?

No, RaW is that he cannot Deep Strike

Then why do the rules as written state that he can?

RAW is that he can deep strike how can it also be that he can't? That is not logical Gwar you can't claim that RAW states that he can't do something that we all know RAW states that he can do...

No, the RaW is that he cannot Deep Strike. If he was able to deep strike, it would have said "May Deep Strike as Jump Infantry" or "Follows all the rules of Jump Infantry".

Moving as Jump Infantry does NOT allow you to Deep Strike, and has been the case ever since the Chaos Codex.

No, the RaW is that he cannot Deep Strike. If he was able to deep strike, it would have said "May Deep Strike as Jump Infantry" or "Follows all the rules of Jump Infantry".

How can the RAW be both? It wouldn't say follows all the rules of jump infantry as then the Hive Tyrant wouldn't have it's MC status, wouldn't be able to shoot 2 wepaons would be able to claim cover normall etc etc etc. It doesn;t say deepstrike as because it doesn't have to it says move as. It also doesn't say "fallback as jump infantry" or "ignore terrain as jump infantry" or "move 12" in the movement phase as jump infantry". It doesn't have to because all that comes under jump infantry movement. By your logic a winged Tyrant can't do any of the above.

Moving as Jump Infantry does NOT allow you to Deep Strike, and has been the case ever since the Chaos Codex.

? Chaos haven't had a codex written since this edition of the rules so what happened to Choas under the old rule set is irrelevant.

Gwar! wrote:No, the RaW is that he cannot Deep Strike. If he was able to deep strike, it would have said "May Deep Strike as Jump Infantry" or "Follows all the rules of Jump Infantry".

Moving as Jump Infantry does NOT allow you to Deep Strike, and has been the case ever since the Chaos Codex.

I completely and utterly disagree.

The rules are completely 100% clear.

Jump Infantry may Deep Strike and this rule is clearly listed under their rules for MOVEMENT.


Ergo, a model that moves as Jump Infantry may Deep Strike.


Without them actually having a rule in the Jump Infantry section saying, "hey by the way guys, any models that count as moving as Jump Infantry follow these rules", how exactly would you expect the rules to be any clearer?

FlingitNow wrote:Chaos haven't had a codex written since this edition of the rules so what happened to Choas under the old rule set is irrelevant.

-Sigh- I'm not talking about the Old Rule Set, I am talking about the Current Rule Set. Wings allow a Chaos Model to move as Jump Infantry. They cannot Deep Strike, because they are NOT Jump Infantry. This is why Chaos Models have the Option for a Jump Pack (makes them Jump Infantry) and Wings (Move as Jump Infantry).

@Yakface: Yes, that is what they should have put. As it is, moving as JI does not allow you to deep strike. If it did, why are there two different rules in the Chaos Codex, one that makes you Jump Infantry and one that makes you Move as Jump Infantry, if, like you say, they are both the same?

Gwar, you really need to address this properly.

Why is it that you can pick one part of the movement section of Jump Infantry to ignore and apply the rest?

"Fallback 3d6"!....I ignore you! (Pokemon reference).

JI couldnt deepstrike in 4th, hence the allowance in the chaos codex

JI can now deepstrike, and something "moving as" JI can Deepstrike.

Gwar! wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:Chaos haven't had a codex written since this edition of the rules so what happened to Choas under the old rule set is irrelevant.

-Sigh- I'm not talking about the Old Rule Set, I am talking about the Current Rule Set. Wings allow a Chaos Model to move as Jump Infantry. They cannot Deep Strike, because they are NOT Jump Infantry. This is why Chaos Models have the Option for a Jump Pack (makes them Jump Infantry) and Wings (Move as Jump Infantry).

That's why you believe there is a difference, but that's not what the rules say.

I happen to believe the difference exists to allow CSM models with wings into transports, while jump packs can't.


But regardless of why there is a difference in the codex, the CURRENT rulebook is crystal clear:

Jump Infantry Deep Striking is a movement rule for them and therefore models who are able to move as Jump Infantry get to use that rule.

Ok, I give up. I'm not going to be able to convince you, so I will back out now, and then rub it in your faces when GW side with me.

Gwar! wrote:Ok, I give up. I'm not going to be able to convince you, so I will back out now, and then rub it in your faces when GW side with me.

How am I using a made up rule?


Is the allowance for Jump Infantry to Deep Strike not listed in the MOVEMENT section of the Jump Infantry rules?


So why exactly would a model that 'moves as' Jump Infantry not get to use that rule?


And you can't say...but it says 'Jump Infantry'...because the WHOLE SECTION references 'Jump Infantry', it's the JUMP INFANTRY RULES.


So if you don't play that models that 'move as' Jump Infantry use the rules for moving Jump Infantry then how exactly are we supposed to play?


I don't get it...

Well, GW certainly could errata/ faq it so that winged models cant deepstrike, but then they can always change the rules any time they like.

As to why the chaos codex was written that way, its been pointed out that the chaos codex was written prior to 5th edition, so it was written that way because 4th edition had different wording for jump infantry. Back in 4th edition winged models would not have been able to deep strike, but this is now 5th edition and we have to follow the current ruels.


1) Winged models move as jump infantry move.
2) Jump infantry can, among other things, deep strike.
3) Is deep strike a move? Yes we find that Deep strike is a move on pg 95.

Therefor, we KNOW that winged models can deep strike.


The people repeating over and over that winged models cannot deepstrike dont ever present provide any groups to dispute any of this reasoning; simply chanting the same thing over and over without any references to back up a point of view doesnt work.




Sliggoth

Regdar wrote:Also, on a side note, Tetris made a great point. Even if we look at this with a rules as intended point or view, I think the fact that the upgrade is 60pts more than qualifies you to allow the tyrant to deep strike.

This isn't a particularly good justification for ruling this way. Wings on Daemon Princes in the CD codex are 60 points, but they can (and have to) DS anyway. So the Wings only confer to them the other types of movements available to JI that they can't already do, and apparently the current thinking at GW is that a MC upgrade that gives it JI movement should cost 60 points. Would explain why the Harpy is so expensive for an underwhelming stat line. I think CSM got lucky with their super-cheap DP wings before GW decided that flying MC's should be pricey.

Now I'm not arguing against you, I happen to feel that the argument about the Movement section in the rules is enough by itself to allow the DS. However, if you're trying to convince someone who is dubious, I don't think the 60 pt argument holds water, since it's right in line with CD.

Gwar why do you keep going on about the Chaos Codex when you constantly claim that a FAQ or rule for one codex is not applicable to any other codex but itself?

Its the chaos marines codex that has the rules on wings being discussed, not the chaos demons codex. The chaos demons have other rules for their deepstriking, chaos marines also have winged rules, and its in that codex that deepstriking is mentioned.



Sliggoth

Iif GW decided to FAQ this and change what the rule says, that is obviously within their power. That doesn't change the fact that RaW is very clear here, and most people agree, that a winged Hive Tyrant can deep strike. I was only trying to say that in my opinion I also believe that having a tyrant deep strike was what they intended. I don't really have any hard proof for this, it's just what I think. Either way, if you go to the last page and the final post of the topic below you will see what the majority consensus, I think it's well written.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/275032.page

FlingitNow wrote:

No, RaW is that he cannot Deep Strike

Then why do the rules as written state that he can?

RAW is that he can deep strike how can it also be that he can't? That is not logical Gwar you can't claim that RAW states that he can't do something that we all know RAW states that he can do...

Actually, it's entirely logical, all these hotly debated issues tend to be because the RAW can entirely validly be interpreted in two ways, RAW isn't really the be all and end all, just because you can see a certain thing in the writing doesn't necessarily mean everyone will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Regdar wrote:Iif GW decided to FAQ this and change what the rule says, that is obviously within their power. That doesn't change the fact that RaW is very clear here, and most people agree, that a winged Hive Tyrant can deep strike. I was only trying to say that in my opinion I also believe that having a tyrant deep strike was what they intended. I don't really have any hard proof for this, it's just what I think. Either way, if you go to the last page and the final post of the topic below you will see what the majority consensus, I think it's well written.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/275032.page

Just because it's the last post in the thread doesn't make it any more correct than all the others.

FlingitNow wrote:

The reserves rule specficall mentions "move onto the table" where if a unit is immobile for example it must deepstrike as to do otherwise would constitue movement.

No if it is immobile it can't deepstirke either as that is still movement. This is why pods (and spores) only become immobile after they have arrived by DS.

Where as deepstrike only says a move, now I warhammer these two words have different applications as one can move things that are disallowed movement if forced to by a special rule

No, you are getting confused the difference is between things that can't "move" but can still "be moved". This is to do with voluntary actions vs involuntary action not movement being different to moving.

The rule book states "Certain rare units are permanently immobile. If a unit cannot be deployed (eg DoW) or the player decides to keep it in reserve, it will enter the game by deepstrike." pg. 94

There is the specific permission for immobile unit to deep strike into battle. What you said above was inaccurate.


On the other one good - thanks I won't have to worry about that line of reasoning coming up. (Falsification of position for the purpose of obtaining someone else's line of reasoning - sorry )

I am completely 100 percent in agreement with yakface. It's crystal clear and you can't expect GW to FAQ every simple question such as this one. Jon has presented his explanation very well. Simply no you can't because it's not RAW has no value whatsoever.

G

Actually, it's entirely logical, all these hotly debated issues tend to be because the RAW can entirely validly be interpreted in two ways, RAW isn't really the be all and end all, just because you can see a certain thing in the writing doesn't necessarily mean everyone will.

Whilst this is true the RAW here is crystal clear and has been spelt out no one beleiving the opposite argument has come up with anything beyond it says "Jump infantry may enter the battle by DS" therefore moves like can't because it doesn't say "things moving like JI can arrive by DS"... Which is an entirely ridiculous position to hold due to that being the way every part of JI movement being worded in the same manner...

The rule book states "Certain rare units are permanently immobile. If a unit cannot be deployed (eg DoW) or the player decides to keep it in reserve, it will enter the game by deepstrike." pg. 94

There is the specific permission for immobile unit to deep strike into battle. What you said above was inaccurate.

Fair enough didn't see that, but that just goes to show that you have to get express permission to enter the battle by DS if you are immobile. It is an exception.

Gwar! wrote:As it is, moving as JI does not allow you to deep strike. If it did, why are there two different rules in the Chaos Codex, one that makes you Jump Infantry and one that makes you Move as Jump Infantry, if, like you say, they are both the same?

Jump packs for Infantry. Wings for Demon Princes so that they don't lose their Monstrous Creature status. Both allow Deep striking.

My rulebook has a list of movements for JI but says at the end all JI units may deepstrike, does move like overide this specific wording?

My rulebook has a list of movements for JI but says at the end all JI units may deepstrike, does move like overide this specific wording?

It also say JI fall back 3d6" just after that which is identical wording. But guess what as both DS and Fallback are types of movement then anything that moves as JI, moves as JI...

xebabb wrote:My rulebook has a list of movements for JI but says at the end all JI units may deepstrike, does move like overide this specific wording?

Welcome to dakkadakka. It's always great to see a first-time poster in YMDC.

Gwar,

Sticking to your guns this long is impressive but your judgment is clouded by not being able to admit you are dead wrong.

The biomorph listing for wings n the new codex directly references the movement section of the jump infantry listing in the 5th edition rulebook. In the movement section above the last sentence clearly allows deep strike.

Deep strike = movement because it takes place in the movement phase! Check the deep strike listing on page 95 5th paragraph.... it begins with 'in the movement phase when they arrive....."


Following the above logic is simple. Read the rules, there is no room for interpretation here, in fact it is so simple I doubt it will even make it into a GW faq.


Just try not to cry when someone deep strikes a HT.

I've proposed this to several GT players at my FLGS, they say simply move 12" because deepstriking is a type of selection for deployment instead of simply moving. As much as the idea people are putting is sound, to deepstrike you choose that option via deployment. Deployment happens before movement phase so I don't see how people are saying movement phase allows them to deepstrike?

Kurgash wrote:I've proposed this to several GT players at my FLGS, they say simply move 12" because deepstriking is a type of selection for deployment instead of simply moving. As much as the idea people are putting is sound, to deepstrike you choose that option via deployment. Deployment happens before movement phase so I don't see how people are saying movement phase allows them to deepstrike?

1) The Jump Infantry rules, which is what a model that moves as Jump Infantry follows, clearly lists Deep Striking within the 'Movement' rules.
2) Deep Strike occurs in the movement phase (There are only 3 phases in a turn: movement, shooting and assault. Deep Striking occurs at the start of the turn which is also the start of the movement phase).
3) The Deep Strike rules indicate that models which arrive via Deep Strike cannot move any further that phase. The use of the word "further" can only be properly used if Deep Strike itself is considered movement.


Really all that matters in this instance is #1, since this is what rules, but #2 & #3 do help to support the concept.

Kurgash wrote:I've proposed this to several GT players at my FLGS, they say simply move 12" because deepstriking is a type of selection for deployment instead of simply moving. As much as the idea people are putting is sound, to deepstrike you choose that option via deployment. Deployment happens before movement phase so I don't see how people are saying movement phase allows them to deepstrike?

Hmm, that doesn't pass the sniff test. This would be like saying that because I choose to hold my Genestealers in reserve to Outflank ('deployment selection'), they don't count as moving when they arrive? Yes deployment happens before the movement phase. Yes you choose how your particular units are going to deploy. After that's done though, the game begins with the Movement phase. Everything after that happens in the regular phases (i.e., arriving from Deep Strike is Movement).

-Yad