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Are Carnifexes any use? Well they are too expensive to use now I hear but in response to that i've come up with this 2,000 point Nidzilla list that might just get the best out of them. The only annoying thing is wound allocation can't be used with carnifex broods, otherwise I'd be far more confident in this army. And before anyone asks yes I know JotWW will stuff me completely...

HQ

Hive Tyrant - Old Adversary, twin-linked Devourers, Bonesword & Lashwhip, 1 Tyrant Guard - 270

ELITES

Venomthrope - 55

TROOPS

10 Termagants - 50

11 Termagants - 55

Tervigon - Catalyst, Toxin sacs, Cluster spines - 185

Tervigon - Catalyst, Toxin sacs, Cluster spines - 185

HEAVY SUPPORT

Carnifex Brood (3) - 2 x twin-linked Devourers, Frag spines, Adrenal glands - 615

Carnifex Brood (3) - twin-linked Devourers, Stranglethorne cannons - 585

The idea is 2 Diamonds with the Tyrant in the middle. So each Carnifex Brood sets up as a triangle tightly packed to block LoS with a Tervigon lurking behind. Termagants stay within synapse and just generally be a nuisance but hopefully avoid enemy fier as they will be low priority. Each Turn the Tervigon catalyses the Carnifex Brood. The Hive Tyrant sits in the middle of these diamonds with the Tyrant guard partly obscured behind a Carnifex to ensure he gets a 4+ cover save. The Venomthrope lurks behind these guys again trying to stay out of LoS to ensure everything gets at least a 5+ coversave.

Then this just moves up table as a wall of death. As a living battering ram. In CC I should be able to deal with anything tough easily even hammernators won't stand up to a charge from 3 Carnifexes. I am reliant on wrecking vehicles in CC but should be able to do so with great efficiency. The only problem I'm have in CC is against hordes hence they are given massed anti-horde fire power. The devourers also double up as anti-light vehicle through just volume of S6 hits (the army pumps out 60 TL S6 shots a turn and 5 pie plates ).

So I think it will do well against most things except JotWW which completely bones this army. Even Sternguard spam will struggle due to FnP on the Carnifexes, likewise Razorback spam will struggle with just the volume of MCs charging at it with cover saves. So what do you think? Is this army just made of fail or will it do well against most things? How could I improve it whilst still sticking to the theme? Maybe I'd be better off dropping the Tyrant for a Prime and Deathleaper to try to shut down Jaws?

All comments welcome!

Friendly bump, does anyone think this is viable? Good? Or just so terrible you can barely be bothered to tell me?

Well you have no elite shooting. Thus you will struggle with killing anything mechish.

As for carnifex builds, I believe in either dual scything talons or dual dakka fexes. No other upgrades. Keep em cheap, and keep em running.

I would run the tyrant with either double dakka or no dakka. In your army, the tyrant only provides preferred enemy. You could instead take 2 tyranid primes with toxin, adrenal, and dual bone swords, and end up saving points. The primes can attach to your carnifex broods and will benefit from majority toughness 6. Or, they can attach to the venomthropes to make them a bit more survivable.

Quick revised 2k list.

2x primes (210) (one wont have adrenal)
3x carnifex (480)
3x dakkafex (570)
2x venomthropes (120)
2x10 gants (100)
2x tervigon (370)
3x hive guard (150)

While I would like to drop a fex for 3 more hive guard, the fex is kinda the point of your list, so I stopped at only 3 hive guard.

Problem I see is that you will be SUPER SLOW!!!! if you try to keep the formation then your going to suffer, not to mention that the carnis cost way to fethin much!!!! Also do not forget that pie plates sill be your worst nightmare!!!

I would use Zoans as well they are killers!!!

Devian

I like your improvements but if I'm droping the tYrant my first priority would be Deathleaper to give me some chance against JotWW.

I don't think I'd struggle against mech because I can kill it in CC and though the HG have a 24" range the devourers have 18" and against AV10-11 just the shear amount of hits I'd be throwing out should be enough.

So the only worry would be mechdar but I'm confident they wouldn't have enough firepower to stop me. Tau who are just stuffed in so many ways or IG. IG can cause me probelms as they have the firepower to take me down pretty fast but they have poor LD and should be taking break tests from turn 2 onwards. Whilst the all tank IG shouldn't be much of a porbelm as they'll have no more models than me and once I get in close 1 Carnifex can wreck a Vehicle squadron in 1 turn of assault so I don't need to make it there in large numbers. Using the FnP to protect me from the massed autocannon fire.

I do love HG though and in general I'd want at least 6 in each army. Would I need 2 Venomthropes as I aim to keep it fairly tight until I'm in assault range?

FlingitNow wrote:Devian

I like your improvements but if I'm droping the tYrant my first priority would be Deathleaper to give me some chance against JotWW.

I don't think I'd struggle against mech because I can kill it in CC and though the HG have a 24" range the devourers have 18" and against AV10-11 just the shear amount of hits I'd be throwing out should be enough.

So the only worry would be mechdar but I'm confident they wouldn't have enough firepower to stop me. Tau who are just stuffed in so many ways or IG. IG can cause me probelms as they have the firepower to take me down pretty fast but they have poor LD and should be taking break tests from turn 2 onwards. Whilst the all tank IG shouldn't be much of a porbelm as they'll have no more models than me and once I get in close 1 Carnifex can wreck a Vehicle squadron in 1 turn of assault so I don't need to make it there in large numbers. Using the FnP to protect me from the massed autocannon fire.

I do love HG though and in general I'd want at least 6 in each army. Would I need 2 Venomthropes as I aim to keep it fairly tight until I'm in assault range?

I think a LRC with 8 TH/SS termies is a definate threat. They're more than likely going to be able to assault your 'fexes out of the LRC,since you really don't have anything to slow them down before the 'fexes get there. 8xTH/SS termies=16 hits and 13-14 wounds when you mathhammer it out. Your 'fexes will average 8 hits and 6-7 wounds,of which the termies will save 4-5 of off the SS's 3+ Invuln. On average,the termies will wipe an entire brood of 'fexes and lose 2-3 guys if they get the charge,which they more than likely will. If the player is smart,since you have to keep your 'fex broods grouped so tightly,he'll manipulate it so he can assault BOTH broods of 'fexes out of the LR so his termies won't get wiped out by your counterassault with your other brood at I 3 and/or HT on your turn,and he'll at least get another round of attacks off and drop another 'fex or the HT if you commit him to the counterattack. He'd obviously be down to probably about 3 termies left after assaulting both broods. He's also probably stopped your advance far enough upfield that the shooty elements of his army will now be able start lighting up the Tervigons and such,now that he's pulled the edges of your shield into the center.

Another tactic I could see used against you is if you've got the first turn,then DPA a unit or two behind your lines and gun down the Venomthrope to deny the cover save to the advancing MC's. Another tactic could be to sacrifice Infiltrators,outflanking units,and/or faster moving assault units to force the 'fexes out of the formation towards the board edges. This not only opens up the guts of your army for shooting,but it also likely drags the 'fexes out of the 6" Old Adversary range and increases the sacrificing unit's survivability. CSM's Lash of Submission could also be used in a similar manner.

I think it's a cool idea,and would definately be a fun army to play,but army is just so dependant on staying in that formation that players with good table savvy will be able to manipulate it against you. There's also plenty of just plain luck things that could break that formation,like a terrible set of rolls by a unit on a DT test or a Battle Cannon round scattering onto your Venomthrope and popping him. I think 1 Tervigon/3xCarnifex column may be viable in an army,but you've got to have faster and/or shooty units to support them and make sure the 'fexes get to assault the units that you want them to.

Deathleaper, while good, wont help this list.

If you play against jaws, you lose. Deathleaper doesnt help this fact at all really. Dont make a terrible game into a very bad game at the expense of lowering your overall power level.

Math says, if you get the maximum -3 LD to the rune priest, he still casts jaws 56% of the time. In a 6 turn game, he will get it off 3 times. Thats a minimum of 2 dead fexes/tervigons right off the bat without the jaws hitting multiple fexes. If he can get the angle to hit multiples, its just over.

As for the THSS example, if you have the Prime (or both primes!) in the carnifex unit, it helps out a bit. The prime gets to swing first, maybe dropping one, and the prime adds more wounds and a different target to soak attacks into.

As for the idea of playing a tight game to mitigate the need for venomthropes, I disagree. While you may indeed be able to cover up the fexes and tervigons, you will have to argue the 50% more often than you think.

It is actually easier to get cover saves without the venoms if you attach primes to the fex units, as only the prime and 1 fex need cover to get the brood a cover save, but even then you stall your line making one MC hide behind another. In this kind of list, you need to fan out the MCs and run every turn your not in range. If you are using models to provide your cover, then if the lead unit rolls a 1 then the rear unit just got a 1 for their run as well.

Also, venoms with their defensive grenades and dangerous terrain, make many scary units much less threatening to the fex in assault--like the THSS termies mentioned above.

As I look again at my proposed list, I would seperate the 2 venomthropes into single units, to provide 2 sources of cover and 2 seperate targets to the enemy.

As a PS, I just realized if you run a single dakkafex with an attached tyranid prime, the prime will work like a tyrant guard and give the fex a cover save as long as the prime is behind a gant screen. Dont know if that helps much, but its kinda a cool tactic!

I like the list because its rare to see people wanting to take carnifex now days , and you are taking so many!

Whatever1

Yeah TH/SS Termies are nasty!

Devian ID good shout actually I'll rework the list your way. And repost in a bit. Probably still won't have Hive Guard for the very reason they are not what this list is supposed to be about.

Did you ever play this list?

I want to know how the Venomthopes and Carnies faired.

Problem with this, IG is going to tear you a new one. Ratlings pick off your MC's, and their mass firepower rains death on your guys. That's the problem with this, while when you get to them, you kill, the path will be very bloody, especially at 2000 points.

What about taking onslought on one or more Tervigons? Gives you perhaps more mobility and firepower at the expense of FNP. If you are going to get targetted by a boatload of lascannons or ap1/2 then catalyst wouldnt be much use anyway. In that case I feel onslaught would be great for your fex broods.

Tyrant guard seems redundant in the original list since it seems its only there to provide a 4+ cover to the Tyrant vs the regular 5+ that he would get anyway from the Venomthrope (or perhaps even a 4+ himself from hiding behind fexes).It also gives up an additional killpoint. Definitely could swap it to beef up the venomthrope squad.

I think this kind of list would do well in controlling the centre of the board and gives very few killpoints. I think this needs something to wade into the enemy field to try to contest the opponent's objective when there are only 2 objectives.

How about:


1x prime (95)
2x carnifex (390)
3x dakkafex (615)
1x Tyrannofex (250)
3x venomthropes (180)
2x10 gants (100)
2x tervigon (370)

I think the MC phalanx theme is preserved, and the Tyrannofex has an insane amount of anti horde, since it can fire 2 flame templates and a big pieplate. I would onslaught the Tyrannofex to give it more mobility and setup flamers. I also think a beefed up venomthrope unit gives you better coverage and is also harder to kill (though harder to hide).

Oh, I've seen this some where else before

On the tyrant I've found that the sword and whip aren't much use and that a walking tyrant needs 2 guards, really. Double set of devourers packs serious anti troop and light armour.

Only thing I'd like is 2 venomthropes. Are you going to get everything around one venomthrope to get a 5+ cover? Be close if you do. And if you do then mass templates are your biggest nightmare. I'd get 2 of these and divide the army up when deploying.

Yeah 2 Venomthropes has already been suggested and will probably be in corporated. Remember I only need 1 Carnifex within 6" of the venomthrope meaning I can span 35" with the Carbifexes should I choose even with 1 venomthrope. I'll certainly be able spread enough to mean that templates aren't a pressing concern.

Aye but what I mean is will you get everything within that 6" bubble?

That span was with all the carnifexes covered by the Venomthrope!

Tervigons get cover from eth fexes so don't need to worry Tyrant sits in the middle so also covered.

But yeah I am thinking about going to 2 Venomthropes and doing a whole host of changes based on Devians ideas above. But this list is some wya from me even starting it so it is all a pipe dream at the moment...

lol some 'fex line with cover!

I would also suggest perhaps onslaught on the tervigons as you'll get to move even further up while shooting those pesky transports.

Yeah Onslaught looks a great investment I'll work it in. That way I can move, run and shoot with both Fex squads. Though that does mean saying goodbye to FnP...

I'm torn.

You'll probably get ap2 and ap3 weapons firing at the 'fex so feel no pain might not be used a great deal on it if lascannons are aiming for its head.

Whilst FnP is useless against Lascannons against Missile Launchers it is very much in use, liutocannons ext to useless against the fexes. So it all depends what I'm up against. I could take both powers on each Tervigon and then just use whichever is most apropiate but then I am always wasting 30 points...

Perhaps only take Onslaught on 1 Tervigon. The TL Devourer Fexes don't need Onslaught because if you're within 18" you'll probably want FNP instead to counter concentrated bolter fire.

Actually I think that you have it reversed Branderic. If your within 18 you WANT onslaught because you want to either get back out of range, or closer so you are able to assault next turn. Within 18 is basicly a 'S$%& or get off the pot' distance.

As for massed bolter fire, fexes LAUGH at bolters. Its the rapid fire plasma guns, that FNP does nothing for, that actually makes ONSLAUGHT better when within 18, and thus within rapid fire plasma distance. Shooting at 17.5 inches away, and then running 1 inch backwards, will make plasma gun units cry.

Good point, but I think you could also make a good case for FNP in certain scenarios. Maybe is best to have both?

Hmmm pretty sure I mentioned about ap1 & ap2 weapons not working with FnP several posts up... lol.

Mercer I think Branderic was commenting that FNP was better than onslaught within 18, and I was pointing out that you still could use onslaught when within 18, to deny short range ap1, or to close within melee distance if the enemy is short on close counter units. He knew ap1/2 didnt work but was making a case that once you get in close, the extra d6 movement was no longer as useful as just having FnP.

I was actually on about your comment buddy, I already mentioned about ap1 and ap2 weapons not allowing feel no pain earlier.

FlingItNow, I wanna know how your multi Fex list fairs out on the battle field as I cant be bothered to test it myself, Have you managed to play a test with this yet? Also would be nice to see a rejigged list after the above suggestions to see how it looks now. Can't wait to see a battle report or something with this list.

Unfortunately the list is just a pipe dream at the moment...

I'll get round to it some day just have too many armies I want to collect and paint and nowhere near enough time or money to do it...

lol, i know what you mean, Nids is only my second army choice. You could always grab a mate and mock it up for a couple of test runs, just to see how it fairs. Did you see my latest Ninja list? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/280991.page

Would love to know what you think.