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So I started with a horde list that I play tested and just didnt enjoy that much. Thought i'd try the opposite of massing and outnumbering my enemy for a bit of sneaky sneaky. Here's my Ninja list. Please feel free to pick holes.

-HQ-

Tervigon (160)


-ELITES-

Zoanthrope Brood x2
+ Spore
+ TL DeathSpit (170)

Zoanthrope Brood x2
+ Spore
+ TL DeathSpit (170)

Doom
+ Spore
+ TL DeathSpit (140)


-TROOPS-

Genestealers x7
Adrenal Glands
Scything Talons) (133)

Genestealers x7
Adrenal Glands
Scything Talons) (133)


-HEAVY-

Mawloc x2 (340)

Trygon Prime (240)


Ok, so The...

-Tervigon is in there to spawn and help claim an objective.
-Zoans to shoot veichles
-Genestealers outflanking to take down there nearest threat and to get an objective.
-Hopefully my scary Mawlocs will mean that there army spreads out a bit so my outflankers have more chance of getting into CC first turn. If not then I should hit with one or two sick large blasts. (I think the trick with Mawlocs is to start them on the board, burrow first turn and have them both automatically come in second turn. So thats 4 large blasts by turn 4 if they are still alive, hopefully contesting and staying alive. I dont think its worth the risk of burrowing on turn 5.)
-Trygon Prime to take some fire and to get into CC as soon as possible, maybe wack a raider or whatever.
-Doom in a pod, because why not, I've had some good success with him.
-All pods have TL deathspitters which should be a pain for the enemy.

So what do you think, sucks or not?

Cheers,

LF

Has some generally nastiness, but I can't imagine holding more than one objective with this list against a smart general.

Genestealers, especially without a broodlord, are going to show up and kill one squad--if the opponent has left them somewhere foolish. Then they die. Take a broodlord, and drop the adrenal glands for toxin sacs. They don't need furious charge, and if your playing group allows poison to re-roll into more rends, you're golden.

I have never tried Tervigon as a straight HQ, and I doubt I ever will, but let us know if it plays well.

The triple threat of Trygon/Mawlocs is pretty nasty, especially at 1500. However, the Mawlocs face one huge danger in this list. If you are facing pure mech, they will strike in and drop their large blast before any troops are on the board. It's cute to hit S6 on AV10, maybe on more than one tank if your opponent isn't wise, but it's unlikely to do what you want when you want. Try it out against a few armies, see if it suits you, and if you find them unreliable I'd recommend running two Trygon Primes.

Let us know how it runs!

Why spend points on Adrenal glands on the Genestealers without giving them toxin sacs!?!?!? Toxin scas are better in every situation so why take adrenal glands? Re-rolling to wound mixed with rending is nasty. Stealers should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS have toxin sacs.!

You'll never win an objectives game as 14 Stealers are all your scoring units. Well except what the Tervigon spawns but that could be literally 3 Termagants and will in general be 1-3 units with only about 10 gaunts in each. So not going to win you an objective game.

You have Doom and Mawlocs which is a bit of a bizarre mix. The doom requires you opponent to be bunched up as it will die the turn after it drops so has to earn it's points back in that 1 turn. The Mawlocs will force you opponent into a wider deployment thus screwing your Doom. Doom works great with spore mine clusters .

Also with no Hive commander you army will turn up in nice bite sized chunks for your opponent to destroy at his leisure.

If you are going Ninja then you need a Hive Commander Flyrant. Eitherway you need far more troops a large unit of out flanking Hormagaunts would add nice weight5 to your stealer attack.

1 Tervigon is easy to isolate and destroy and what is the point in taking it if it is not going to buff your gaunts or catalyse anything?

All your ranged AT can be shut down by a Psychic hood, far too easily. I can't help but think Deathleaper would be far better suited to this army that the Doom.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

if your playing group allows poison to re-roll into more rends, you're golden.

Why would your group not be playing by this standard rule?

Thanks Chaps. I'll make some mods, probably drop Doom for more troops and try that because you are right, it is light on troops.

Also Ill change to toxin sacs, Thanks dude, you are right as usual.

Also Tyrant with hive commander might be better placed in this list.

I'll test with the two Mawlocs and swap for another Prime if that doesnt work out. 33% chance of hitting with that blast and a 66% chance of hit and run aren't amazing odds even if you survive the firepower thrown at you. The only good thing is ensuring both come down second turn with the tactic pointed out. Thats should increase there survivability

Yeah Trygons in general need to be used in pairs as 1 will pop up and get shot in the face full of death. Mawlocs do the damage when they arrive so can work as soloists and they are lethal against bunched up transports . If you are running 2 Mawlocs start them both of the board for a gauranteed turn 2 assault with them.

Hive Commander would do great a Flyrant is a lot of points but he can DS along with everything else and be a real pain. My personal fav config owuld be 2 x TL Devourers and Old adversary. Between him and a Prim hopefully arriving at the same time your opponent will be hit by 24 shots just rom those 2 MCs! Let alone the Stealers assaulting him and hopefully 30 Hormagaunts too! Target saturation is the key you need 2 MC CC beasts arriving at the same time otherwise he'll concentrate fire and annihilate!

Actually a spore mine cluster could work well with this army. Dump them in the centre of his deployment zone and force him to deploy near a board edge to help with eth outflankers!

This gives me an idea for a list...

I didnt realise Hormagaunts could outflank, I thought you could only do that if you have stealth or infiltrate, I must be missing something. Does a specific MC grant this ability?

I didnt realise Hormagaunts could outflank, I thought you could only do that if you have stealth or infiltrate, I must be missing something. Does a specific MC grant this ability?

hormagaunts can't out flank but Hive Commander allows one unit of troops to outflank...

if your playing group allows poison to re-roll into more rends, you're golden.



Why would your group not be playing by this standard rule?

Some RAW purists are whining that the two different close-combat powers/attacks/weapons/whathaveyou do not stack. Maybe this example doesn't even apply, but you get the idea.

Toxin sacs are plainly not weapons.

Claiming that 'nids can't use both a lash whip and a bonesword at the same time is irritating rules lawyering; claiming they can't use rending claws and toxins sacs at the same time is just making stuff up.

Some RAW purists are whining that the two different close-combat powers/attacks/weapons/whathaveyou do not stack. Maybe this example doesn't even apply, but you get the idea.

Firstly toxin sacs are in no way a CCW. Secondly this arguement holds no water. It applies only to models armed with exactly 2 single-handed weapons. Though if they want to get technical no Tyranids ever gain benefits from being armed with CCW biomorphs as page 33 of the codex clearly states that Tyranids never use CCWs, hence by the rules on pg42 of the BRB they never gain the benefit from being armed with them.

I have a question concerning Trygon's for my army list and before I refine it further and generally concenring how I would deploy him.

I understand that Deepstrike and Fleet does not grant you the ability to Assault first turn after deepstriking. I've read a lot of other forum posts on the subject and this only appears to apply to the Planet Strke rulings.

So I see no point in deepstriking a Trygon close to the enemy lines unless you have multiple targets coming in at the same turn.

I don't see much point starting him on the board either because by the time you get to the enemy you'll probably be down to a couple of wounds if you make it.

So, what's the right use (in most situations) for Trygons?

So, what's the right use (in most situations) for Trygons?

You actually answered this in your post here it is:

So I see no point in deepstriking a Trygon close to the enemy lines unless you have multiple targets coming in at the same turn.

They work well coming on at the same time as either a Hive Tyrant that can paroxysm that devastator squad or another Trygon so he has to split his fire or let one hit him unharmed.

The trick is to attack on flank of the enemy with them so he can't bring all his guns to bare try to ensure you are LoS blocked or at least in cover from as many of his heavy weapons as possible (which admittedly is far from easy with a model that size).

LOL, yeah getting a cover save is near on impossible with that big doofus. If only he had Burrow too and why on earth not...GW, you make no sense.

I don't like the idea of relying on something else coming in on the same turn as him to save him. There seems to be to many If, Maybe's and Hopefully's. And this makes me think him not being worth the use. I could take three mawlocs and template him all over the place second turn. Those odds tell me Im unlucky not to hit with at least one large blast. Plus that gives him three targets to immediatley worry about, plus I save some points for troop selections. The issue here then is synapse...

I like your idea of using spore mines too but they are a little week and random. I'd just run them over in my Land Raider if I was the facing opponent.

My only concern with my list is dealing with Tanks, Ok, I have the Zoans but they aren't much use if im getting blocked by Hood or something, ok, I can take the enemy phsyker out as my first objective. I really wanted something heavy and hard on foot for backup purposes to slap a multi Raider list.

Any thoughts FlingItNow or others please feel welcome to comment.

Here's a list I was inspired to make from our chat on Ninja Nids. To be more competitive I'd probably drop the Doom for another unit of stealers but I just wanted to use him in this list see the reasons later

HQ

Flyrant: Wings, 2 x Devourers, Old Adversary, Hive Commander - 310

ELITES

The Doom of Malan'tai: Mycetic Spore, TL deathspitters - 140

TROOPS

30 Hormagaunts: Toxin sacs - 240

8 Genestealers: Toxin sacs - 136

8 Genestealers: Toxin sacs - 136

FAST ATTACK

Spore Mine Cluster: 3 spores - 30

Spore Mine Cluster: 3 spores - 30

Spore Mine Cluster: 3 spores - 30

HEAVY SUPPOR

Trygon Prime: Adrenal glands - 240

Trygon: - 200

TOTAL 1,502

I knwow I've spent alot on the Flyrant but that is really unavoidable. At the bear minimum he's 255, so if you're plowing that many points into him already you may as well have him as effective as possible.

The whole army goes Ninja except the spore mines they get deployed right in the centre of his deployment zone. The idea is to make it difficult for him to deploy anywhere but the edges. Then he has the choice to split his army which works great for the Trygons and Flyrant, and also means whichever side the outflankers come on on they will have a target. Or he can castle on one side. Which makes the Doom very happy and should mean that I still get at least 2 out flankers on the correct side. However it will mean the Trygons and Flyrant will have to drop infront of a lot fo guns.

Having 3 DSing MCs all capable of putting out a decent amount of shots and with me having a 3+ arrival on turn 2 (2+ on turn 3). I should be able to gaurantee that I have at least 2 of the big guys come down on the same turn. Ideally that will be turn 2 but if not then turn 3 is almost a given.

What do you think?

I like your list a lot. It definately has potential and its kind of what I was aiming for which is to be a pain in the ass before he's even deployed, make him think hard before the game has even begun.

The obvious thing for the enemy to do unless he is all mech is to stick everything on one side. I do see a lot of mech lists that can be a total pain in the ass to deal with.

It would be interesting to see how this list or very simular lists pane out against someone holding everything back in reserve/DS.

One thing I thought was sexy was using broodlords phsykic ability to reduce all units leadership by -1 within 12 inch range. This lasts until the end of the opponent players turn, Imagine dropping a Doom in amoungst that with at least 2 broodlords in the mix. OK, it wont work in your turn but Dooms ability goes off in their shooting phase to. All I need to do is think of a way to Pen them in lol. Ok ok, the more I can think about it its a silly idea.

I'm going to work on my list and incorporate your ideas. Ill do some testing this week/end and report back.

The obvious thing for the enemy to do unless he is all mech is to stick everything on one side.

Which makes the doom very happy and means i can concentrate my assault on one place and he'll have no-wkere to run.

Granted throwing a Mawloc into my list might make the bunch up option even more terrifying.

If he's mech? Simple just drop the Doom right in the middle of his tanks and have fun . The Stealers and the MCs are also a threat to vehicles in CC so again if he's bunched up happy days .

2 Broodlords + Doom might really make the Doom even more lethal I might think about adding that. The probelm is that then you are sticking a lot of eggs into the Doom basket...

You know what, I dont think you even need the spores to make him think about deployment. If he's a good player or even semi experienced he'll look at the list containing say, at least two units of outflankers plus another unit outflanking from the Tyrants ability. With the Trygon Prime and 2 Mawlocs, you would be just plain stupid to spread your army thinly against that.

And to be Frank, the spores are a pretty minor attempt to push him into a deployment zone that you'll probably get anyway, they really aren't much of a threat, that saves you 90 points to spend on some other goodies. With that he's likely to setup centre stage and get wacked by 2 Mawlocs and a Prime second turn.

If thats the case your stealers can come up through the hole left by your Trygon. I forget, its only one lot of reserves that can come up through the hole per turn but can you use it on the same turn the Trygon comes into play?

I just wanna get home and re-write this list now.

What I'm trying to do is not necessarily force him to bunch up and castle as you say he's likely to do that anyway. What I'm trying to do is force him to do that near a table edge so the Genestealers and Hormagaunts can assault him the turn they arrive.

I disagree that it is suicide to spread against Mawloc it can be suicide to bunch with a Mawloc around. Any models that can't be moved are destroyed. Bunching up just increases the chances of the Mawloc auto destroying whatever it hits (like that LR for instance ).

If thats the case your stealers can come up through the hole left by your Trygon. I forget, its only one lot of reserves that can come up through the hole per turn but can you use it on the same turn the Trygon comes into play?

One unit per turn, can't use it until turn after the Trygon has arrived and can't assault on the turn they arrive. I'd rather be pushing them to a flank for the outflank. Neither the Hormies nor the Stealers will last long if they have to stand in front of guns for a turn...

Yeah that's very true. Good points all round, what I was meant to say if you have so many outflanking units he's not gonna go anywhere near a table edge which just leaves the centre.

So its like, we waste our outflankers and he gets hit with the Mawlocs/Trygons by him setting up in the centre. Or setup at the edge and get totally messed up. Either way, the spores aren't going to play a major role in any of this.

This is sounding sick, I want to play now god damnit.

Yeah I know the feeling if only the Bank manager would understand and I could paint 6 armies a day...

I can see what you mean but the Spore physichally prevent him from castling in the centre that is the point. He may choose to deploy near the Spores but he can't deploy on them. Thus he'll have to leave Mycetic spore sized gaps in his deployment for the Doom to land in or deploy on one side and try to move into the centre on his first turn giving him a disrupted castle. The point is to make his deployment a pain in the a. For 90 points in this list I think it is well worth it even if they don't cause a single casualty (and I don't expect them to). I suppose I could drop them and up grade the Trygon Prime to another Flyrant. But the Flyrant gets nailed by Hammernators where as the Prime actually is a strong favourite against 4 and should beat 5 more often than not .

One additional thing, aren't we better to start the flying Tyrant on the board to ensure we get our +1 to reserve/DS roles from the get go? Cuz like, what happens if we dont get him in three turns in a row, that would suck balls. He has flying so 12 inches a turn to get in close to the enemy. That's 30 inches into th board by turn 2 not including running the first turn. Just need to hug cover like our lives depended on it. By setting him up on one side of the board could make your opponent play into your trap even more so.

One additional thing, aren't we better to start the flying Tyrant on the board to ensure we get our +1 to reserve/DS roles from the get go?

Nah he just has to be alive not on the board.

Having him sat there as the only MC on the board would equal death for him. Getting cover for MCs is really difficult and even then he'll direct so much fire power at it to stop your +1 on reserves if nothing else that it will be dead particularly if you go 2nd...

Although thinking about it having 2 does appeal for 2+ turn 2 reserves but then he'll castle nicely in the centre and everything will have to drop/arrive in front of his guns... Plus the Trygon kit is so awesome how can you possibly not want to take 2?

To bump it up to 2,000 then I'd add another Flyrant and 190 points of Hormagunts I think (extra bodies also outflanking). though tecnically by RAW you only get 1 unit outflanking no matter how many Hive Commanders you have... If that's the case then I add another 136 Stealer brood and a Broodlord or 2 .

Cooless, I'm going to do another revised list when I get home. Thanks for answering my rule/deployment queries and help with the list.

Cool hope I helped

Ok lol, I'm going to test this, it's by no means the final list but I think it looks pretty fun.

I decided against weapons on the spores because at 5's to hit I can't really see the point. Maybe if I had points spare but in this list I needed every point I could get my hands on. I also opted out of Old Adversary mainly because I just couldn't afford it and couldn't garauntee my gaunts would be within the 6 inch range to benefit from it. The only other things that would benefit would be the Mawlocs and I don't intend for them to stay in combat. Yes, I think 3 Mawlocs is too many and a Trygon Prime with less Zoans would probably be better balanced.

So same applies, Everything starts in reserve. All troops outflank.

-HQ-

Hive Tyrant
+ Wings
+ Hive Commander
+ TL Devourer x2 (285)

-ELITE-

Zoanthrope x2
+ Spore (160)

Zoanthrope x2
+ Spore (160)

-TROOPS-

7 Genestealers
+ Toxin sacs (119)

7 Genestealers
+ Toxin sacs (119)

18 Hormagaunt
+ Toxin sacs (144)

-HEAVY-

Mawloc (170)
Mawloc (170)
Mawloc (170)

(1497)

Looks mean. I think you need the redundnacy of 2 Zoanthrope units and 3 Mawlocs will have him sperading his force all the better for your Tyrant and outflankers to take advantage of.

Fair enough on adversary on the Flyrant he's just so expensive! I tend to go with adversary purely for him rather than be too worried about other units getting the benefit though I'd try to ensure he's nearer the flank that my stealers and Hormaies are coming on. With 30 Hormies in my list I should be able to ensure one is with 6" of the beast.

Let me know how it gets on!

Ok, So the last list from me was a fun list and a cant wait to try it.

The following is what I feel would be a competative list. I've listed two versions and wonder which would be better. Basically the same applies, everything Outflanks/DS's. The Zoans are there to open up transports while the Tyrant and the Trygons open fire and destroy the units inside. My only concern is perhaps both lists are a little light on troops. I want two units of Zoans to give me an increased chance of getting a unit down on turn two to open up a transport. Both lists are welcome to comments.

List 1 -

-HQ-

Hive Tyrant
+ Wings
+ Hive Commander
+ Old Adversary
+ TL Devourer x2 (310)

-ELITE-

Zoanthrope x2
+ Spore (160)

Zoanthrope x2
+ Spore (160)

-TROOPS-

7 Genestealers
+ Toxin sacs (119)

7 Genestealers
+ Toxin sacs (119)

19 Hormagaunt
+ Toxin sacs (152)


-HEAVY-

Trygon Prime (240)

Trygon Prime (240)

(1500)

----------------------

List 2 -

-HQ-

Hive Tyrant
+ Wings
+ Hive Commander
+ TL Devourer x2 (285)

-ELITE-

Zoanthrope x2
+ Spore (160)

Zoanthrope x2
+ Spore (160)

-TROOPS-

8 Genestealers
+ Toxin sacs (136)

8 Genestealers
+ Toxin sacs (136)

8 Genestealers
+ Toxin sacs (136)


-HEAVY-

Trygon Prime (240)

Trygon Prime (240)

(1493)

I prefer the first list just has more bodies in the troops section. With the Zoanthropes and Hive Tyrant do you need both Trygons to be Primes? That could be 40 points spent on troops.

Also remember the Hive Tyrant can take out transports through shear weight of S6 shots he's pumping out. Likewise in a pinch the stealers can rend a AV10 rear tank to death particularly if it hasn't moved. 7 Stealers 21 hits = 3.5 penetrating hits = dead tank. Even Leman russes with rear AV11 you should get 2 penetrating hits on and a glance, hit a squadron and you should nobble it for a turn at least.

Thanks for your words.

I think with a well placed Tyrant towards the rear of a veichle and with one unit of Zoans in on turn two, also along with one of the primes gives me a good chance of opening up the transport and doing a nice chunk of damage to the squad inside.

I think its all needed to give you a much better sucess rate on turn two. If both Primes come down that's 24 shots into a squad. Tyrants ability to silence one squad (BS/WS 1) is also amazing.

That's what I like about this list, not much can stand up to anything in the list if I fire/strike first.

That's what I like about this list, not much can stand up to anything in the list if I fire/strike first.

Yeah unless you are against Ninja Mechdar you should be at an advantage dice gods willing of course.