Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just finished playing a game against Nurgle CSM. Was a good game, thought i was going to loose since turn two I only had a Prime, gaunts and a unit of genestealers on the table.

Third turn all but one unit of zoans and a unit of stealers down, bad shooting though and managed to do hardly anything. I then lost my Tyrant to Radier lascannon, a pred lascannon, and a follow up of 3 combi meltas from his squad of disembarked Termies, they then assaulted Tyrant, I took three of them down but a termy champ with a chainfist was just to much to handle.

I ended up the game with a captured objective to his none to take the win finishing on turn 6. I had one Zoan left along with a Prime on two wounds, all of the gaunts and 60% of the genestealers still on the table.

He had a few rhino's, a predator, 2 plague marines and an unscratched Raider left.

The lesson I learnt was to protect your Tyrant, he only has 4 wounds and can't take a pounding if left to much in the open. The additional lesson was that toxin sacs are totally totally sick. I love Hourmagaunts with toxin sacs. Initiative 5 with toxin sacs, three attacks on the charge, thats just discusting.

Needs more tests but I don't think i want to change anything at the moment.

Sounds cool Remember although your Tyrant died he had to throw a huge amount of points at it to do so which is probably why other parts of your army were left unscathed and able to pull out the win for you. Toxin scas Vs Nurgle is just hilarious (well not so much for him)

How did the Trygons get on?

Trygons are solid.

So second turn one Trygon came down on the right hand side to look after the Hourmagants and the Stealers came in on the other side of the board. I hid both units behind cover as He pretty much castled in the center of the table covering two objectives.

So the second turn Trygon came in facing a Daemon Prince. I didnt have anything to shoot at apart from the Prince because everything else was a tank or in a tank. I failed to do a single wound with 12 shots. On his go he took a few shots at my Trygon knocking 2 wounds off. He got his Warptime off and took another two wounds off me. They stayed in combat for about three turns until the Gaunts came in on turn 5 with about 21 attacks and killed the Daemon Prince before the Trygon could fall as he failed to hit him and failed Warptime on every following turn. He then took a shot to the face with a few Lascannons before he could do anything further.

Second Trygon, simular thing, Tried taking 12 shots at a group of 6 plague marines failing to do a single wound. He took a few more shots from lascannons and Melta's, then charged the unit and slowly ate through them.

Best thing to do as far as I can see is get them in combat and keep them in combat if possible as quickly as possible. If they are in combat with slim chances of taking wounds then I think the regeneration option would be a nice touch. I just don't think it's affordable in my list.

Ok, updated the list a little. Basically took one unit of three Zoans which allowed me to increase the troop sizes slightly and to also give adrenal glands to the gants which now gives me re-rolls to wound on a 4+ against T4 when charging.

HQ-

Hive Tyrant
+ Wings
+ Hive Commander
+ Old Adversary
+ TL Devourer x2 (310)

-ELITE-

Zoanthrope x3
+ Spore (220)

-TROOPS-

9 Genestealers
+ Toxin sacs (153)

8 Genestealers
+ Toxin sacs (136)

20 Hormagaunt
+ Toxin sacs
+ Adrenal Glands (200)


-HEAVY-

Trygon Prime (240)

Trygon Prime (240)

(1499)

This looks very solid. I can't see it doing anything but causing everyone involved a severe headache.

Ok, did some testing of the list further at the weekend.
Played 5 games, lost two and won three. Every game I went second I won, every game where I had to go first I lost.

The losses -

Played against an outflanking SM army with Khan. I went first and a lot of my troops came in on the right hand side. On his go, a lot of his stuff came in on the right hand side to and screwed me completely.

Against Eldar I lost also, He was playing a hit and run list. I got bad reserve rolls, he took a few kill points and then I just couldnt catch him, ended 3-1.

The Wins -

Beat a Nid list, pretty simular to mine.

Also beat a pretty standard SM list with termies, razor backs and a Radier and assault squads.

Also Beat Tau (Was a very fun game coming up right on top of him). This was annihalation and I won 10-6.

So I'm changing this list up again because of things I've learnt from these games.

Firstly, dropping 3 Zoans in range of something to shoot is great and all because you can most times take a tank out, but not being able to shoot at multiple targets is limiting. Also, I find that they are charged the next turn and killed or tied up in combat for a few turns. So 220 points to take out one tank and maybe tie something up in combat for one or two turns isnt to me cost worthy. So I'm dropping to 2 Zoans in this unit to free up some points for another distraction.

Secondly, I don't really need the amount of Synapse I have, because the Hormagaunts suffer from feed and I want those guys to charge and to get into combat asap anyways. I'm dropping the Primes to standard Trygons, again these I just want to charge into combat if the fail anyway. It's not very often I do a great deal with the 12 shots he gets when he first comes in. I also often find that they will survive a round of shooting leaving him on 1 or 2 wounds, so I'm giving both of them regen. Trygons are sick in combat!

I'm also droping Old Adversary from the Tyrant. He's just so expensive anyway, not very often do I have anything within 6 inches of him to benefit from the ability. Its cool that he gets to reroll but with WS8 STR 6 who needs it. Plus I'm mainly going to fly him around to shoot up troops and the odd tank anyway. 2x TL devourers does the business averaging out at 7 wounds or more.

So Here's the reworked list I'm going to test this week. Same applies, everything is outflanking or DS'ing. I need to improve my tactical play If i have to go first facing another amry in reserve. Let me know what you think guys.

-HQ-

Hive Tyrant
+ Wings
+ Hive Commander
+ TL devourers (285)

-ELITE-

Doom
+ Spore (130)

Zoans x2
+ Spore (160)

-TROOPS-

21 Hormagaunts
+ Toxin Sacs (168)

9 Genestealers
+ Toxin Sacs (153)

9 Genestealers
+ Toxin Sacs (153)

-HEAVY-

Trygon
+ Regen (225)

Trygon
+ Regen (225)

(1499)

I like it a lot, it's very close to what I would play at 1500 points. But why not change the Hormagaunts for fully upgraded Gargoyles? They cost the same, they deepstrike, they have a gun and they can screen your Tyrant. The only drawback I see is that it would perhaps leave you too thin on troops.
And on the Genestealers I would switch Toxin Sacs for Adrenal Glands because mech will give you more problems than infantry.

Cheers N.I.B. It needs re-testing to see how it performs. I would definately take Gargoyles because with Toxin Sacs they are one point cheaper per model then the Hormagaunts. The only thing that prevents me is that I can't be sure that they will be covered by synapse since the Tyrant could potentially be needed elsewhere on the table and since Gargoyles lurk rather than feed it doesnt fit with what I'm trying to do.

I might drop the Zoans completely and replace them with another Trygon with Regen. Probably best to give the Trygons Adrenal glands to as Initiative 4 leaves me going at the same time to most things which means potential preventable wounds avoided at a 10 point cost.

Hi guys, really interesting 3d, can't stop to refreshin' it continously.
Just a little and maybe stupid question but anyway.. it's looks like you always pay your Flyrant 15p more.

ie the last one you posted:

Hive Tyrant
+ Wings
+ Hive Commander
+ TL devourers (285)

Isn't it 170+60+25+15=270?

Where did you spent those 15p?

If I'm right I will make these modifications:

QG - Flyrant - TLDev - Hive Comm. - Wings - 270
EL - Doom - Spore - 130
EL - 2x Zoes - Spore - 160
TR - 9x Stelaers - toxin sacs - 153
TR - 9x Stelaers - toxin sacs - 153
TR - 18x Horms - toxin sacs - 144
HV - Trygon - adrenal glands - 210
HV - Trygon - adrenal glands - 210
FA - 10x Gargoyles - toxin sacs - 70

Or in alternative to the Gargoyles:
FA - 3x Spores mines - 30
FA - 4x Spore mines - 40


Tob

Hey Toban,

Hive Commander should read to have "TL devourer x2", sorry for any confusion. That brings him in at 285 points.

I don't think the Gargoyles work for the reason explained above unless I wanted to try and give my Tyrant a cover save...

I may drop the Zoans for another Trygon and give them all Adrenal Glands though but I'm going to test the list above first to see how that works out, should be able to squeeze a few games in this weekend.

Any further comments are of course welcome.

L0rdF1end wrote:
Hive Commander should read to have "TL devourer x2", sorry for any confusion. That brings him in at 285 points.

This explaine everything but don't you think will be usefull gain a CC attack that can bring istant death on adversary characters?
Like a Bonesword or, with your config an Implant Attack? Just my opinion.

L0rdF1end wrote:I don't think the Gargoyles work for the reason explained above unless I wanted to try and give my Tyrant a cover save...

Of course you're right.
On a 1500p list having 70p standing on a corner doing anything ins't usefull at all but I simply adore the toxics littles flys.

L0rdF1end wrote:I may drop the Zoans for another Trygon and give them all Adrenal Glands though but I'm going to test the list above first to see how that works out, should be able to squeeze a few games in this weekend.

Don't know honestly, on a bigger list with more points availables I'll be agree, but in this case rather than the Zoes I will consider some Hive Guards. Always on a drop spore.
Still not Synaptic but cheapers, more versatyles vs different targets (infantry ecc ecc.), in no-need of a LoS, with an higher R and with the same number of wounds.

In addition, If you consider to replace the Zoes with a non-synaptic Trigon don't forget the Instict-Behaviour.
The MC will assault only if with a target in rage, the Hive Guards will alwais be able to shoot in anywhere into 24".

I will try this list also:

QG - Flyrant - parox. - leech ess. - hive comm. - double TL Dev. - wings. - 285
EL - Doom of Malan'Tai - mycetic spore. - 130
EL - 3x Hive Guards - mycetic spore. - 190
TR - 9x Stealers - Toxin sacs - 153
TR - 9x Stealers - Toxin sacs - 153
TR - 21x Hormagaunts - Toxin sacs. - 168
HV - Trygon - adrenal glands. - 210
HV - Trygon - adrenal glands. - 210
Tot. 1499

Been looking at your lists and I keep seeing the same problem. Your tyrant has no support and nothing to screen it. I am surprised it doesn't get shot to pieces in the first few turns.

mercer wrote:Been looking at your lists and I keep seeing the same problem. Your tyrant has no support and nothing to screen it. I am surprised it doesn't get shot to pieces in the first few turns.

L0rdF1end wrote:...
So Here's the reworked list I'm going to test this week. Same applies, everything is outflanking or DS'ing. I need to improve my tactical play If i have to go first facing another amry in reserve. Let me know what you think guys.
...

mercer wrote:Been looking at your lists and I keep seeing the same problem. Your tyrant has no support and nothing to screen it. I am surprised it doesn't get shot to pieces in the first few turns.

He does, I don't think i've ever played a game where he didnt die, but he is effective in bringing my reserves in faster, also he eats through Troops with his TL devourers. His psycik abilities are also awesome, he helps me to have an additional unit outflanking. I generally cause a lot of problems with him before he dies and there's normally bigger threats on the board which helps him last a bit longer. He's there to die but cause havoc before he does.

What does he have to screen him then, besides a trygon, which will get shot to ribbons by plasma, lascannons and krak rockets.

Though I am not talking about his abilities I am talking about the problem of him being screened.

Heres an idea:

-HQ-

Hive Tyrant
+ Wings
+ Hive Commander
+ TL devourers (285)


-TROOPS-

8 WARRIORS with Deathspitters

9 Genestealers
+ Toxin Sacs (153)

9 Genestealers
+ Toxin Sacs (153)

9 Genestealers
+ Toxin Sacs (153)

-HEAVY-

Trygon
+ Regen (225)

Trygon
+ Regen (225)

It gives you another synapse and TROOPS choice - PLUS its a unit that can screen the Tyrant if it shows up the same turn as the Tyrant.

Not to mention 24 S5 shots on side or rear armor.... that cant be hooded.

Tyrant might not be screened but will be duel or tripple threat with a Trygon or 2 in toe. Yeah they make take out eth Tyrant but they can't take out both MCs in 1 turn and certyainly not 3. With DS it is essentially impossible to have a viable screen as Dsing is so unreliable in terms of placement trying to drop eth Tyrant within 12"-18" and then a large brood of gargoyles between the Tyrant and enemies is asking for 1 or both to mishap.

In terms of an ID causing ability the bonesword is next to useless. Any IC that will be a threat to the Tyrant will have Ld10 testing on 2d6 is only about 9% chance to ID... Implant attack is good but again you are boosting eth cost of the Tyrant and you want him laying waste to oposition when not in assault.

On the final list there is no way those Warriors can screen the Tyrant unless it DSes within 6" of the board edge which again is asking for mishap. When side armour is 14 having 1,000,000 S5 shots that can't be hooded is still no use.

With BS3 warriors those 24 shots only translate into 12 hits on AV11 (most things side armour) that translates into 2 glances not exactly panic stations time...

Whilst it does give you an extra troops choice that is at the cost of numbers. It does not give you anymore synapse choices though does give you greater synapse range.

OH and last point Hive Guard can't take Mycetic Spores.

FlingitNow wrote:OH and last point Hive Guard can't take Mycetic Spores.

Are you sure?

Damn.. this change everything.. but for what reason? A Carnifex can be dropped and Hive Guards not?

Damn again.

Modified list:
QG - Flyrant - parox. - leech ess. - hive comm. - double TL Dev. - wings. - 285
FA - 10x Gargoyles - Toxin sacs - 70
EL - Doom of Malan'Tai - mycetic spore. - 130
EL - 2x Zoanthropes - mycetic spore. - 160
TR - 9x Stealers - Toxin sacs - 153
TR - 8x Stealers - Toxin sacs - 136
TR - 18x Hormagaunts - Toxin sacs. - 144
HV - Trygon - adrenal glands. - 210
HV - Trygon - adrenal glands. - 210
Tot. 1498

Still worried about the Gargoyles life-time..

Hive guard have no option for a spore, they are not "prevented" from using one by any rules but they can't select one as an option hence would never be able to use one...

Hey guys, Nice work on the list ideas, this concept is quite thought provoking.

I do like the idea of having an extra unit like the Gargoyles in your list Toban. It gives me an additional chance to secure an objective. Also they can DS but the unit is very small and flimsy and would need to be guided by synapse. Also trying to get them to operate as a screen would waste valuable time for me to get my Tyrant up to the front lines shooting away at light tanks and infantry which is what he's good at and designed to do.

Before I make any addiitonal changes to my list I want to see how regen works out for me on the Trygons and possibly take three and give up the Zoans. This is still very much subject to change until I've played at least another half dosen games to really test out the current list.

Well, it's true that the Gargoyles are quite unsure.
If used as Flyrant screen they will not live a lot of time for sure, if in DS the risk to lose 70p on a table corner is too big. I still prefer the first deployment.

The third Trygon on, instead of the Zoes, is fascinating.
But at this point it will be needed a synaptic point and go for a Trygon Prime will ask too much points.

Besides You will not gain a lot of anti-tank power, maybe a multiwound MC will live more than 2 Zoes but it must be seriously tested.

Waiting for feedbacks ;D

PS. just for schematic one non-synaptic option:

QG - Flyrant - parox. - leech ess. - hive comm. - double TL Dev. - wings. - 285
EL - Doom of Malan'Tai - mycetic spore. - 130
TR - 9x Stealers - Toxin sacs - 153
TR - 9x Stealers - Toxin sacs - 153
TR - 18x Hormagaunts - Toxin sacs. - 144
HV - Trygon - adrenal glands. - 210
HV - Trygon - adrenal glands. - 210
HV - Trygon - adrenal glands. - 210
Tot. 1495

One question I have, I'm still quite new to 40k as I had a massive 10 year break only playing a few games within these years.

Can the Tyrant use parox on one unit and then say shoot at a tank? I'm guessing no because you can't split multiple targets. I do find that I'm always firing with both my twin linked devourers and following up with a charge if permitted rather than using any of his phsycic powers.

The answer to your question is no, you have to fire at the same targets unless noted in the models rules.

Your flyrant would benefit from gargoyle screen. They do nothing but benefit the tyrant and keep in synapse range too. The flyrant can still shoot infantry etc, nothing stopping it.

Lone boneswords aren't great for IDing, but they're still quite reasonably priced power weapons that will happily tear up heavy infantry. Even the threat of ID is better than nothing, too! So, they're not bad. For most purposes, the whip/bonesword combo is probably better than dual boneswords.

Lone boneswords aren't great for IDing, but they're still quite reasonably priced power weapons that will happily tear up heavy infantry. Even the threat of ID is better than nothing, too! So, they're not bad. For most purposes, the whip/bonesword combo is probably better than dual boneswords.

The Tyrant already ignores armour saves, can already ID anything with T3 or below and has I5 so will strike before most things that are a threat to it anyway... Just not a good option particularly on this Tyrant.

Your flyrant would benefit from gargoyle screen. They do nothing but benefit the tyrant and keep in synapse range too

I still don't see how they can act as a screen? Given the whole army is DSing in having the Gargoyles DS that close to the Tyrant is just asking for a mishap, especially considering how close to the enemy you'll be trying to DS the Tyrant...

Oh, yeah, good point -- agreed, there's not much point in having a bonesword on the tyrant. I guess the only purpose would be if you were giving your Hive Guard boneswords instead of lash whips, and since this tyrant has wings & hence no hive guard... no point at all.

FlingitNow wrote:

Your flyrant would benefit from gargoyle screen. They do nothing but benefit the tyrant and keep in synapse range too

I still don't see how they can act as a screen? Given the whole army is DSing in having the Gargoyles DS that close to the Tyrant is just asking for a mishap, especially considering how close to the enemy you'll be trying to DS the Tyrant...

Why would you deep strike gargoyles and a hive tyrant for? The tyrant will get shot to pieces without some kind of cover and the gargoyles will just get gunned down.

The entire army is DSing (or arriving from reserve) if you start the Tyrant on the board even with a gargoyle screen then you are throwing those units away. The enemy could potentially have 2 full turn to shoot at those units and nothing else.

I like the gargoyle screen for a flyrant it is a good tactic. But it is just not viable for the all reserve army.

To true FlingItNow, although im messing around with the concept of having the Flyrant possibly starting on the board. This is mainly due to the inconsistency of reserve rolls as its very likely the fact that the reserve roll bonus will not work with him off the board.

I'm contemplating running some tests with the Flyrant Starting on the board with either 2 Tyrant guard, or 1 and 10 Gargoyles.

With one Guard and 10 Gargoyles the idea would be to get a cover save from the Gargoyles and have the Guard soak up a couple of wounds while moving closer to the enemy lines on the first turn.

On the second turn I would detach from the Guard (if he was still alive) and swoop in 12 inches with the Gargoyles and Flyrant hopefully getting in range for assault. In this setup Id probably take a hand to hand varient in order to save points for the Tyrant Guard in the list.

Any thoughts? If the bonus does (very doubtful) turn out to take affect off the board then its back to the original plan of having everything in reserve.

This is mainly due to the inconsistency of reserve rolls as its very likely the fact that the reserve roll bonus will not work with him off the board.

There is no way it doesn't work with him not on the board. That is how the Lictor rule works and it is worded completely differently because it works completely differently. The Hive Tyrants bonus works whilst he is alive. The RAW and RAI is very clear no one who's read the rules could claim otherwise. Whilst GW might write 2 similar rules differently to claim that they have written 2 identical rules in the same codex completely differently is beyond reasonable discussion. There is a 0% chance of the bonus not working when the Tyrant is in reserve unless they make a change.

I really would even bother considering that as an option anyone trying to play or rule that way is just being TFG. It is a cut and dried as the Zoanthropes getting their 3++ save. There really is no room for debate on that rule.