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Folks:

Ork lootas are armed with Deffguns.

A box of Lootas/burnas comes with 4 burna arms/weapons, 4 Deffgun arms/weapons, 5 bodies, parts for a KMB and for a big shoota.

Fluffwise, a Deffgun is the loudest, shootiest gun that an ork could get a mek to cobble together for them. Since there's only four per box, and I'm running 30 Lootas in a tournament here shortly...I added the big shootas to the mix and they're going to be Lootas/deffguns. After all, the loudest, shootiest gun that they could get was a big shoota.

If the biggest gun an ork could find was a shoota...it would still be a deffgun if you said so!!

So with that in mind, if I have a unit of 15 Lootas on the table, and half are orks with the actual deffgun model, while the other half are big shootas....would you have a problem with this? Loota squads don't come with differing wargear, just 15 dudes with Deffguns.

Thoughts? Headed to a GT in two weeks; scrabbling together everything I can.

Personally I would not care - you could stick on some targetters or something to make them more high tech, perhaps? Not even sure that's needed tho.

I regularly run such a unit. A handful of actual deffguns mixed with big shootas or dual wielded shootas/TL shootas/sluggas. With the ammo packs and such I think they look plenty loota-y, and as I don't field any big shootas there's really no confusion. I've never had a complaint.

Wouldnt care, for the reasons you've stated in your OP. All Lootas carry deffguns, and only the Mek in the squad can even carry a big shoota, but why would you get a Mek? So long you clearly point out to your opponent that "This mob of 15 Lootas all have deffguns" it should be fine.

If you do have issues with it though, you can always try snazzing them up a bit. For example, cutting barrels from any spare shoota/slugga arms, spiked shoulderpads, ammo feeds/boxes, targetting reticles and so on, and just adding them to the big shoota should help 'beef' up the deffguns.

I hate to post without my codex, but I'm at work and working off of memory...

I thought lootas, like burnas could take mek upgrades and the mek could have either a KMB, big shoota or rokkit launcha. That's the only issue I could foresee, but I think you can only have 3 meks with a squad anyway. I personally wouldn't have a problem with it (in fact, my flash git conversions may have a new home with my lootas), but I could see a TO possibly having an issue.

If you read the rules posted by the TO he specifically sights an example that you can't model a Bloodletter on a large rock and say it's a Blood Crusher. There is no way that you can state an ork armed with a big shoota fufills the WYSIWYG requirement - it's an ork armed with a big shoota. I think you would be best served discussing this directly with the TO rather than come here in an attempt to to make the case it's okay to substitute an ork armed with a big shoota in lieu of actual loota. To be honest when I read the title of the thread I thought you were going to discuss some really cool conversions you had built. I'll just leave it at that for now.

G

No. I wouldn't.
Unless you made them look more killy than a big shoota, say, extra ammo belts, longer barrels, more targeters, etc.
I'd be fine with it.
I'm okay with that as long as I see an effort was made.

ALSO, in the ork codex, it describes the deffguns as being shoulder mounted

Dashofpepper wrote:So with that in mind, if I have a unit of 15 Lootas on the table, and half are orks with the actual deffgun model, while the other half are big shootas....would you have a problem with this? Loota squads don't come with differing wargear, just 15 dudes with Deffguns.

In a friendly game, I'd go with it.

In a tournament with WYSIWYG requirements? I would possibly be ok with it so long as there were no other big shootas in the army (so consistency is maintained, and I don't have to remember which big shootas are big shootas and which are deffguns)... but would rather see them modified in some way to make them beefier than a standard big shoota.

Do something like this:

insaniak wrote:In a friendly game, I'd go with it.

In a tournament with WYSIWYG requirements? I would possibly be ok with it so long as there were no other big shootas in the army (so consistency is maintained, and I don't have to remember which big shootas are big shootas and which are deffguns)... but would rather see them modified in some way to make them beefier than a standard big shoota.

This. If all big shootas in your list are def guns, it's completely cool with me for a tourney. Counts as is completely legal in our lfgs tourney scene.

For instance, some IG folks count grenade launchers as shotguns or melta.

Whatever, I wouldn't care. For example, my Karskins (Love 'em to death, run them as vets w/ carapace) come with 3 special weapons (Flamer, Melta, Plasma). If a unit like this (metal) have special weapons that are not switchable, then I would say it's OK.

However, I'm assuming that Lootas are plastic, i.e. switchable, it would be favorable to have something more representative of it. For example, an ork player at my FLGS has a few Lootas with Tau Burst Cannons and says they're Deffguns, everyone's cool with it.

In the end, to play it safe, try to mod them to look dakkier.

I'd be fine. Anything to set them apart from a big shoota. Even if you painted your big shoota count-as deff-gun blue, I would accept it.

Just mod them some.

I have two lootas that are made from the big shoota bits-- one in each arm, with a crossbar linking them. Gives them that shoulder-mounted, big gun look, and is very distinct from a regular big shoota.

Also, between the little bolt-on rokkits and other gubbins, you should be able to modify a standard big shoota to look imposing/different enough to suit.

In a friendly game it should be ok but in a tournament even if the TO says it's ok I still wouldn't like it.

I'm all for using counts-as-solutions, but if you play against people you don't regularly play the representation have to be reasonable in size and looks etc, and there must be very little risk for confusions. If some of the things that looks like H-shootas in your army are actually H-shootas, and some are actually Deffguns, there is a big risk of confusion. If everything that looks like a H-shoota is a deffgun, there is still a big risk of confusion. Your opponent shouldn't have to keep this things in their head during a stressful tournament match.

I say mod them. Lots of extra barrels, more magazines and ammo-boxes. Reposition so they end up shouldermounted. Then paint them in a distinct colour that they share with only deffguns. And you should be fine.

I'd be fine with it. There's no realistic chance of confusion between a Loota unit and anything except maybe Flash Gits. It's not like there's a unit of Orks w/Big Shootas I'm going to get it confused with.

Because the squad can take big meks equipped with big shootas, it's important to convert any big shootas that you're using to make them look more impressive. I had just enough actual lootas to make 14, so my 15th is a converted mek with big shoota model with a big ammo pack and a wire running from the tesla coil thingy on his head to wrap around his gun and then his other hand wields a slugga. I figure together they make a deffgun, and it's obviously different from the big shootas in my boyz mobs. In casual play it's not likely to matter but in a tourney it could be important.

All that matters is what the TO says. Creating a thread to upsurp them is uncool.

G

If your goal is to maximize bitz from your Lootas boxed set and get 5 lootas out of every box, then the Big shoota bit should be converted by either adding an additional strap-on gun to it, preferably an imperial weapon. This would make it a conversion and meet WYSIWYG.

If your goal is to take stock BigShoota models that can be interchangeable with regular ork boy squads as Big Shootas, then I would say no, mainly because you can take a Big shoota in a loota squad so it is not like it is a weapon option that cannot be taken. Since it is a valid weapon option or the squad, saying it is anything else is a Proxy and not acceptable for a Tourney which is disallowing proxies.

Convert your BS to Deffguns. It takes minimal effort and from our kits, we have tons of BS bits available to us so it is not like they are valuable or expensive.

I agree that it’s cool as long as either a) there are no other big shootas in the list to be confused with them, or b) you’ve converted the lootas’ ones in some way. Like cutting and building on a second (or third!) barrel from a regular shoota. Having big backpack thingies like the other Lootas would be best, too.

Green Blow Fly wrote:All that matters is what the TO says. Creating a thread to upsurp them is uncool.

You already made your point on that. There's nothing wrong with getting player opinions. If the end result is something that the majority of players have no issue with, there's no need to bother the TO with it in the first place.

The TO for this case stated don't bring Bloodletters mounted on big rocks and try to pass them off as Blood Crushers. This statement was made explicitly as an example to illustrate his position in regards to the subject of WYSIWYG, which is in question by the OP. The people responding to the question here in this thread are by no means the same group of people who will be playing in this Indy GT... so while their opinion is interesting it does not necessarily have any bearing on the TOs statement (see above) or serve as a useful example of how the people who will actually attend might feel in regards to this question and it's important to keep that in mind. Otherwise it could set a bad precedent in regards to other questions involving the rules. That is the main reason why I think the OP would have been better served to have had addressed this question directly to the TO instead of polling people here. The TO's ruling is final and has to be respected.

G

That really just depends on what he's expecting from this thread.

If he's after a ruling on whether or not his lootas will be acceptable, then sure, the TO is the only one who can give that answer.

If he's after a bit of a look at what other players think of the issue, whether for his own personal gratification or so he can present it to the TO when he asks about it, the thread is no less useful than any other YMDC discussion.

5 of my 10 lootas are converted-up big-shoota type weapons (including multilasers, multimeltas, etc.) All these conversions have tons of extra cables, gunsights, and rockets, and stupidly exaggerated backpacks linked to the weapons with heavy cables and the like (I use guitar wire). I think they should work for WYSIWYG---I'd just suggest you do something similar, to cover your bases.

Green Blow Fly wrote:All that matters is what the TO says. Creating a thread to upsurp them is uncool.

G

It's cool. He's just asking for advice since he hasn't done a lot of big tourneys. And the TO in question obviously haunts Dakka quite a bit.

What I'd do, is take any and all gunlike bitz and add them to the big shoota boyz to bulk up their guns. You could also add some of the extra burner bits from the box, Use thin plastic tubing, or my favorite: go to the local GW, stuff a porkupine down your trousers, then yell out "I just put a live porcupine down my trousers! Give me all your shooty bitz now, before I do something really crazy!!!".

Guaranteed to get you all the shooty bitz in the room. (But your porcupine might need some therapy afterwards.)

Really to me a big shoota is a big shoota, while a deffguns name explains that its a loud gum, thats massive. I would believe they would have a problem at the tournament with you using big shootas, but that's just my opinion, Green already answered this the best.

Heck, I use the mekboyz with the kustom mega blastas. I too have 30 Lootas so I just stick three meks in each squad and noone has ever questioned it. Of course, there isn't a model in the army that even has a 2 handed gun other than those Lootas, so there can be no confusion. I don't think anyone has ever even questioned it, heck most never even notice.

I think it's reasonable to use models that are slightly different, but look close enough, and again, if they are standing in a group of Lootas, what else would they be?



Clay

I dont mind as long as there is no real confusion.

If you still feel iffy about it, just buy some IG Heavybolters since noone damn uses them or tau burstcannons and whatnot. Lootas are known for stealing weapons .

A local 40k gamer told me that in GT, there is a WYSIWYG rule. You might get nail for that. Maybe you can sugar coated to offer that player full sportsmanship as a trade.

Good luck.