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I play Chaos and my regular opponent plays this list:

2 Tacs in Rhino with MM/MG
1 Dev with 4 LC and PC
Thunderfire Cannon
2 TH/SS squads
Chaplain
Librarian with flamer thing and null zone
1 Redeemer LR
1 Regular LR


I CANNOT beat him. I've lost about 10 games in a row now trying all different things.

Here is the issue:

He gets a 20 inch charge with the LRs. That means at the LATEST hes got a turn 3 charge sometimes turn 2. Chaos has NOTHING that can effectively kill land raiders from a distance. Lascannons have a whopping 4% chance to kill one or a 6% chance to kill/immobilize. My only sources of lascannons are oblits, havocs, preds or LRs. None of them are cheap and none of them actually have a reasonable chance to do anything.

"Meltas duh!" you say. Doesn't work. Meltas come from normal marines, oblits or DS terminators. Don't even mention bikes they don't get a turbo boost save vrs reedemers. to effectively deepstrike term/oblits I've got to have an icon within 12" of the LR. best case scenario I blow up the LR. Now what do I do? I shoot some bolters into the terminators, kill nothing and next turn he charges anyway. Worst case I don't kill the LR and next turn he kills my rhino then fries everyone inside with the redeemer and charges something else with the terminators.

Close combat is a joke. My best units, DPs and berzerkers don't do anything. Just last night I charged with 9 berzerkers and kharn and i managed to kill a whopping one terminator. he swings back, kills kharn and 4 other berzerkers and i lose 2 more to no retreat. awesome. DPs do the same thing. Kill maybe one then get beat down by the combination of TH and nullzone.

Here is a list of units that are completely useless against this army:

Lord
Sorceror
Terminators
Possessed
Dreadnaught
Plague Marines
Noise Marines
Thousand Sons
Raptors
Bikes
Spawn
Havocs
Predators
Defilers

That leaves me with:

DP
Chosen (questionable)
CSM
Berzerkers
Demons
Vindicators
Land Raiders
Oblits

Here is what it comes down to: I've got nothing strong enough to kill him, nothing tough enough not to die do him, and nothing fast enough to stay away from him. Honestly the best unit I've found to fight them are lesser demons.

Short of rolling very well or my opponent rolling very poorly I haven't found a way to win. Right now I feel like my best strategy is to pray he can't charge two units at once and then pray he rolls a bunch of ones.

I really feel like this is one of those matchups that I just can't win. his army would be awful against orks for instance but against chaos it is extremely powerful. Am I wrong to think that I'm just kind of screwed when trying to play this army?

Suggestions?

Try chosen with 5 meltas, preferably a 5 man squad. if you get the first turn one of those land raiders is screwed if not its not that many points. also in combat hit him with as much as possible.

Die Traitor Scum!

no sorry, you can always use Lash of Submission to move them back in a tight little circle, then drop a Demolisher Cannon or Obliterators Plasma Cannons on them.

If your Berzerkers get the charge, you should put a world of hurt on the Terminators. Why not try and beat him at his own game? Can Berzerkers get Melta Guns? If so, throw some zerks in a Rhino, and full out charge at his LR. Disembark, and pop it with Meltas. Then after that, assault his face off. Make sure you have some Powerfists in there too.

Or take an Obliterator squad, and simply pour Las Cannon fire into his LR's. Just because there is a low chance, doesn't mean it can't happen. I use to have this same train of thought. You need to get that out of your head. You always need to think that everything will penetrate, even if a 5-6 is needed.

Why do you think Defilers are useless against him? My friend uses 2x of them in a 1k list, and they roll people. What issue are you having with them?

Have you tried using Lash from your DP, to push his troops that are going to assault you, back?

Mind you, I don't play CSM. But ive played my friends CSM enough to know a bit about them.

2 Tacs in Rhino with MM/MG
1 Dev with 4 LC and PC
Thunderfire Cannon
2 TH/SS squads
Chaplain
Librarian with flamer thing and null zone
1 Redeemer LR
1 Regular LR

How many points is this?

Hit him with a lot of normal attacks and they go down just as fast as normal termies. He still has a one in six chance of failling. 10 zerkers SHOOTING will kill almost half a termie and in close combat you should kill another 3 (without a champ). Also they only have 2 attacks each (3 on the charge) so if you charge him he doesn't:
-Get to use Avenger
-Get re-rolls from chalain and they're still only hitting on 4's
-Have enough attacks to get free from a tarpit

It looks like he relies on the Chaplian and Librarian for support so if you get into close combat try to get as many models as possible into base to base with them and single them out to stop them.
Also the lash tactic would work (barring the librarian) and dropping lesser daemons down to block him for a turn would work as well.
I run a tactic like this but mine uses some lightning claws as well to deal some damage first.

wuestenfux wrote:

2 Tacs in Rhino with MM/MG
1 Dev with 4 LC and PC
Thunderfire Cannon
2 TH/SS squads
Chaplain
Librarian with flamer thing and null zone
1 Redeemer LR
1 Regular LR

How many points is this?

Despite the fact that a Devestator squad cannot take 5 heavys (and is thus, illegal) the list at a minimum comes to 1970
(assuming no term armor on the lib / chap, 5 man terminator squads, LR's chosen as dedicated transports, 10 man rhinos with no sgt updgrades anywhere).

Looks like you need to accomplish three things:
1> Immobilize / kill the LR's.
2> Ignore the contents.
3> Kill the Rhinos.

I'd take two or three small Termicide units with combi-meltas to immobilize the LR's.
In the meanwhile, the Obliterators should immobilize the Rhinos.
Then use the lash Princes to crowd the Termies and shoot them with the Obliterators' plasma cannons.

Even though points have not been given at 2000 points you should be able to give C:SM a world of hurt with chaos.

As mentioned 2 Defilers works extremely well, couple that with a 3 man obliterator squad and you have some deadly heavy support.

Make sure you are charging with your bezerkers and not getting charged by him. Bezerkers should put a world of hurt on TH/SS termies. Zerkers are WS 5 and Strength 5, you should be hitting and wounding on 3+. This should come out somewhere to around 16 wounds with a 10 man squad of zerkers and a minimum of 2 termies dead before they swing. Give your skull champion a power weapon and he should be able to kill one by himself.

His deavastator squad with 4 lascannons is extremely expensive, drop a battle cannon on that and you destroy most of his long range anti-tank this lets the rest of your army move.

You could go with 3 vindicators as your heavy support. That should open up those land raiders a little more reliably (strength 10 ordnance) as well as being somewhat useful against the passengers and the rest of his army.

As far as killing TH/SS termies goes though, chaos doesn't have much that isn't more vulnerable to them and vice-versa. Charging with Khorne Berzerkers is probably your best shot. You should kill about 3 terminators with your berzerkers on the charge before they get to strike back. However, this means you have to be able to destroy their transport so you can get the charge. The lascannon devs are a threat to your vindicators, so you'll want to use cover as well as possible.

Defilers and oblits won't really help your land raider killing problem much unfortunately. For the oblits it would be expensive termicide and the defiler can't do anything to the land raiders at range, and killing it in melee is less important since you're trying to kill it before the passengers disembark.

I defeated TH/SS Raider rush Terminators quite easily with Termicide, Oblits, and Lash Princes in 'Ard Boyz last year.

Leave your Oblits/Terms in reserve.

Make sure every unit is in a rhino.

On turn one, move straight towards him, blow smoke. Now there are three things to your advantage:

1. If he wants to charge you, he has to get his units out of his transports before you get your units out of your transports.

2. If he does not want to charge you, your drop squads are now in melta range of his Land Raiders.

3. His Terminators hit your transports on 6's, and his army doesn't have enough other weaponry to knock out your armor reliably.

The generic DP/Oblits/Termicide/Rhino Marines list can take apart his list quite capably.

dakka!!!! and plenty of it. As has already been stated, even the toughest unit can be killed with enough S4 shots (my nightbringer for example).

not forgetting that 'Bltz have multi-meltas to play with as well as las cannons, they can muller a LR quite happily.

Alternativly, just move around them. They have nothgin ranged and can only move 6" at a time so they can be out-manoevered.

I can sympathise with you. A regular opponent of mine fields a squad of CC termies with LCs and a termie chaplain. very nasty.

Finally.....isn't there a demon weapon that causes instant death (slaanesh i think) how about a termie lrd with that rolling in a LR with a squad of 'zerkers or termies? You woudl hit first, be able to shoot on the way in with LOTS of dakka (get within 12" and a squad of 5 chaos termies can unload 10 shots with re-rolls), then charge. Termeis will hit first with power weapons, 'zerkers will hit soner, harder and more often, but allow an armour save.

Everyone keeps saying berzerkers and I've tried it. Maybe I'm rolling terribly but at least three times they've just bounced off and gotten rolled over.

The termicide hasn't worked either. Last game on his second turn he popped 2 rhinos with a LR moving 6" and firing 2 LC at different targets then charged on squad with the other TH/SS squad and killed them. My next turn (2nd turn) no terminators come in, berzerkers charge the TH/SS squad that is out, die, other marine squad isn't within 6" for their melta on the LR so just stands there and looks stupid because it can't hurt anything and can't get away from the coming charge. His next turn I lose a squad of oblits to first TH/SS squad and the afore mentioned CSM squad to the new TH/SS. My third turn one termicide squad comes in. A little late don't you think?

The problem isn't the dev squad. And it was 3 LC and a PC I mistyped. Defilers won't work because he puts them in the cover that his tech marine bolsters so they get a 3+ cover save. Removing them with shooting is not easy. I'd rather use a dakka predator than a defiler in that case.

I think that I am getting really unlucky. Alot of the stuff that I take really shouldn't be doing this poorly. Last game I fired 6 multimeltas within 12" from the oblits at the redeemer and all they did was blow off two guns.

It is a 2k game.

GET NEW DICE.

Seriously, i used to have a set of "cursed"dice. Gave them away and sicne then my games have gotten a lot better.

other marine squad isn't within 6" for their melta on the LR so just stands there and looks stupid because it can't hurt anything and can't get away from the coming charge

You need to get this out of your head, or you will never improve. The melta gun CAN hurt the LR. Sure you need a 6, but it can happen. I always use to do the same thing as you, and I lost constantly. Now, if my gun can hurt something, regardless of what I need, I go for it. It surprisingly works out quite often. I couldn't tell you how many 6's I rolled trying to nade a walker, or 6's ive rolled to pop open a LR.


GO FOR IT.

Defilers won't work because he puts them in the cover that his tech marine bolsters so they get a 3+ cover save. Removing them with shooting is not easy. I'd rather use a dakka predator than a defiler in that case.

So? Wounds are wounds. And in CC, defilers are quite awesome. My friends defiler almost wiped out my 5x man Terminator squad last night.

pom134 wrote:Everyone keeps saying berzerkers and I've tried it. Maybe I'm rolling terribly but at least three times they've just bounced off and gotten rolled over.

You sir, have bad rolling and he has good rolls. I have had my bezerkers charge grey knight terminators and kill 4 out of the 5 before my zerkers died. Get new dice or something. When wounding on 3+ and hitting on 3+ you should be killing terminators.

Always always always shoot. Ive seen some pretty ridiculous things happen because i decided i might as well shoot since its there. I once put 2 wounds on an Avatar with my zerkers bolt pistols right before i charged. If it is there take the shot.

Defilers are very versatile, even if you are shooting at devastators in cover, its worth it. Even if he only loses 1 lascannon its worth it. Just because it is not guaranteed to work doesnt mean you shouldnt use it. Defilers will kill terminators as well as landraiders. Defilers have fleet so they will catch a landraider. Even if you hit on 6's, if you stun him, next turn he is dead meat. Use the defiler to clog up terminators. For 150 points, an invaluable unit imo.

Honestly, TH/SS termies are the most difficult thing to kill in 40K

That is one of the reasons i take them all the time.


The thing that kills TH/SS termies is the same thing that kills regular termies. someone said it earlier, a million rapid firing bolters.

AP2 and power weapons won't kill TH/SS termies. one of the advantages of TH/SS termies is the fact they can shrug off wounds they normally wouldn't be able to survive reliably.

They will pass invuln more reliably then their armor saves because they will have to roll much more armor then invuln. Many people will treat terminators like tanks and shoot them with Lascannons, melta, plasma...ect, but that only works when dealing with a 5+ invuln, a 3+ invuln will laugh off AP2 fire

Can't Chaos get LC terminators? that is the one power weapon squad that would work.

Either avoid them or assault them with alot of Zerkers, defilers and other things

Regarding shooting before you charge:

It is a horrible idea. The best outcome is I only kill one Termy. If I kill any more its a morale check and guess what? SM can auto-fall back which, with an average roll of 7 on 2d6 will take him out of charge range. Next turn it is a auto re-group and then he gets an assault.

Only way around this is to position something behind him so he wouldn't get the auto regroup and would keep falling back.

pom134 wrote:Everyone keeps saying berzerkers and I've tried it. Maybe I'm rolling terribly but at least three times they've just bounced off and gotten rolled over.

As mrwittwer said, you do indeed have terrible luck or your opponent has very good luck.

Do the math-hammer. 10 vanilla bezerkers on the charge will kill around 3 terminators on average and should be able to kill the rest of a 5-man unit in later turns and come out with around 7 bezerkers intact. This increases marginally if you add a skull champion with a power weapon.

I feel your pain. I once charged 5 TH/SS termies and Vulcan with TWO 10 man Zerker squads, each with a Powerfist and it did NOTHING. 16 wounds, all saved.

Hate TH/SS Termies.

just keep doing what your doing, the odds are in your favor.

In my expierence there's no such thing as luck -Obi-Wan

Well I would field a squad of noise marines, move them up in a transport jump out and use their assault 2 bolters, and varied frequency to destroy the thunder-fire. Get a Lord with Mark of Khorne and a Blood feeder to kill of any terminator threat, attached to your berzerker squad of 9. Field 2 oblits and try to multi melt the LR. Thats what I do to deal with those when I Play SM.

Ok heres what you need to do. Whatever your doing now against his army. STOP! How ever your setting it up, probably trying to assault him first hand, so just bull charging right at him? STOP!

Do the exact opposite from what hes used to you doing. It sounds simple, and the best part it is. If youve really lost against him 10 times, then hes obviously got your style pegged.

Also you need to pick and choose who your ignoring and killing. He does have a pretty strong SM list, LR spam is a bitch (I play Orks ) But from the looks of your list, you should be able to beat him if you deploy and play differently. And I agree, try to maximize your shooting. When you get to the point, where your just vomiting bullets, they are going to fall.

One things for sure, Id stay out of assault with those TH/SS termies at all costs. Id agree that they are probably the toughest unit to kill in the game. And since CC is where they shine, Id stay the hell out of it. Maybe try and come in from behind him as well. You can blow that thunderfire cannon to bits, assault his dev squad (cover saves are useless in CC) and then use his set up against him. Youll be shooting at his ass. Then he would have to turn around and come back through your fire

Strategically speaking this is what I suggest, which you may find crazy, but bear with me:

Take Possessed, a Greater Daemon, and a couple of units of Chosen.

Make the Possessed Squad nice and big. Make sure it has a Possessed Champion. He's what's going to turn into the Greater Daemon. Make sure that the squad has an Icon, either the Icon of Tzeentch or the Icon of Khorne.

The Chosen units should have a Lascannon, two Melta Guns, and two Power Weapon. They infiltrate nice and close to the enemy. Given them Icons of Tzeentch.

Your troops should be squads of Chaos Space Marines in Rhinos with Flamer/Lascannon, Icons of Chaos Glory.

Heavy Support? Defilers, particularly for the long-ranged Battlecannons that can pound on the Thunderfire, Tacticals, and Devastators, but also so you can charge their Land Raiders when they close, and so on.

Any points left over should go to Lesser Daemons.

Tactically speaking you want to use the Lascannons in your Chaos Space Marine and Chosen squads to concentrate on the regular Land Raider, then Meltas as they close with your infiltrated Chosen. The Chosen should be deployed on flanks, 14" from the table edge, with a nice big 18"gap in between the two squads (assuming 6' wide table). The Possessed move up the field into the gap between your Chosen units, so that the Land Raiders are funneled between the two areas of Melta-Death, and towards the Possessed.

Make sure that you deploy your Possessed so that the Terminators can assault them, so within their 18" charge range if possible.

A Sorcerer of Slaanesh with Lash of Submission and Warptime and Wings hanging out with a Chaos Space Marine squad will be second-line, so if (when) the Terminators wipe out the Possessed and the Greater Daemon they'll spawn, you'll be able to set them up with a pounding from the Defilers and Chaos Space Marine flamers.

So, consider a unit of five Terminators with Thunderhammers attacking a unit of ten Possessed. The Possessed will attack first, with 20 attacks if they have the Icon of Tzeentch, 30 attacks if they have the Icon of Khorne.

4+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 1 to defeat armour.
IoT: 10 hits, 7 wounds, 1 unsaved wound.
IoK: 15 hits, 10 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds

That means, on average, four Terminators will attack the Possessed with an Icon of Tzeentch. That's 12 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, 3- to defeat armour. Against the Icon of Khorne, three Terminators will have 9 attacks.

IoT: 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds.
IoK: 5 hits, 4 wounds, 3 unsaved wounds.

Regardless of which Icon they have, the Possessed will lose, but they're Fearless and they'll lose by 1 on average (or they could be wiped out, or win, or what-have-you). But the Icon of Khorne will mean that they lose 2:3 rather than 1:2.

The following turn we see:

IoT: 8 Possessed, 16 attacks, 8 hits, 5 wounds, 1 unsaved wound
IoK: 7 Possessed, 21 attacks, 11 hits, 7 wounds, 1 unsaved wound

Then
IoT: 3 Terminators, 6 attacks, 3 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved wound
IoK: 2 Terminators, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved wound

The second round of combat is tied. IoK: 2 Terminators to 6 Possessed. IoT: 3 Terminators to 7 Possessed.

The third round of combat:

IoT: 7 Possessed, 14 attacks, 7 hits, 5 wounds, 1 unsaved wounds

IoK: 6 Possessed, 18 attacks, 11 hits, 7 wounds, 1 unsaved wound

IoT: 2 Terminators, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved wound

IoK: 1 Terminator, 2 attacks, 1 hits, 1 wounds, 1 unsaved wound

As you can see from this progression of averages, the Terminators get wiped out in the fourth round of combat by the Possessed with the Icon of Khorne, and in the fifth by the Possessed with the Icon of Tzeentch. Which is good, because that unit of Possessed will have costed 50% more than the Terminators. The Possessed will lose 50% of their own strength in doing so.

So two game turns to eat a unit of Terminators, on average. That's ignoring any help registered by the Defilers, Greater Daemon, or Chosen squads.

I like your plan nurglitch, and you dont even account for any benefits the possessed may have. Just hope you dont roll a 5 as feel no pain doesnt have vs thunderhammers. Rending or power weapons would really help the most. But scouts would help in getting those possessed in place to be charged. Though if the plan is letting the possessed get charged hope a 2 for furious charge isnt rolled either. But nuglitch's plan works even without daemonkin so i certainly like it.

Zerkers. Led by Kharn

Praxiss wrote:dakka!!!! and plenty of it. As has already been stated, even the toughest unit can be killed with enough S4 shots (my nightbringer for example).

not forgetting that 'Bltz have multi-meltas to play with as well as las cannons, they can muller a LR quite happily.

Alternativly, just move around them. They have nothgin ranged and can only move 6" at a time so they can be out-manoevered.

I can sympathise with you. A regular opponent of mine fields a squad of CC termies with LCs and a termie chaplain. very nasty.

Finally.....isn't there a demon weapon that causes instant death (slaanesh i think) how about a termie lrd with that rolling in a LR with a squad of 'zerkers or termies? You woudl hit first, be able to shoot on the way in with LOTS of dakka (get within 12" and a squad of 5 chaos termies can unload 10 shots with re-rolls), then charge. Termeis will hit first with power weapons, 'zerkers will hit soner, harder and more often, but allow an armour save.

OOC I admit, but the Nightbringer can't be wounded by str 4 shots.