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From my experience on these forums, I've gained a general consensus of what people do and don't like for unit choices in 40k.

I must say that in my experience, the Chaos Obliterator Cult is mostly what people praise.
Defilers are sometimes positively remarked about.
Havoks earn some respect, but there are usually complains about point cost.
Vindicators, sometimes earn spite because of their unreliability.
I have never heard anybody post about Chaos Predators (Probably just coincidence)
And I haven't heard much about Land Raiders either.

What do you think is the best choice for a CSM heavy support choice?
Best doesn't mean that it can defeat all the other choices in a battle, it means best overall;
If you had to take out any of the choices above to a tourny, and had to use it the entire tourny, which choice would you stick to?

No point comparisons; If you think a mob of 20 Havoks with lascannons are an ideal choice then that's fine.
These choices can be upgraded in the CSM armory with whatever options they are normally allowed.

Personally, I like the Vindicator.
Due to it's very killy main weapon and good frontal armor.
My next choice would be the Defiler, but I find that those die too easily.

I hate to be the first person to ost a reply cause I feel like MHO doesn't hold too much merit, but oh well. I voted (since I can only vote for one thing) for Oblits. Personally I run 3 different HS, 2-3 Oblits, 1 Vindi, and A Defi. Work all corners, and all Unit types.

Billie_Joe wrote:I hate to be the first person to ost a reply cause I feel like MHO doesn't hold too much merit, but oh well. I voted (since I can only vote for one thing) for Oblits. Personally I run 3 different HS, 2-3 Oblits, 1 Vindi, and A Defi. Work all corners, and all Unit types.

The Gods thank you for your humble opinion Billie.

I voted for Defilers as I run 2 and when people decide to pop the battle cannon I can just fleet my way up and say hi

Voted defiler it's a better multi-purpose tool than oblits, which really are ok in shooting, but flops over and dies horribly in any assault.





I use a dakka pred with an extra havoc launcher on occasion and that thing is mean as hell.. until you have to move it.
damn defensive weapon rules...

Havocs pretty much are the same thing, but able to go a fair bit cheaper.


Depends on the enviroment really, i usually bring 1 defiler, 6 havocs and a dakka pred.. they get the job done.

Oblits give you more fire power, more versitility and more durability than any of the other options.

Defilers are HUGE and so its near impossible to get them into cover. Then without that protection all you have to do is kill one AV12 vehicle, which isnt hard for any army. In the end they turn out to be an expensie red herring. There are CSMzilla lists that run 3 MCs, 3 dreads and 3 defilers, but those are more themed lists than competitive ones. I neaver heard of any doing well in a tounament.

Vindicators arent worth takinging without demonic possession, so they cost about the same as a defiler. They can be scary but its their short range nature that hurts them. They do last longer than defilers though because of their front armour and smoke launchers.

Havocs can to a single thing very well for a lot of points. You can have some that are great at killing light tanks, great at killing heavy tanks, great at killing MCs, great at killing hordes or great at killing MEQs, but not any good at anything else. To make them last you have to beef up the squad with a few extra marines and probably give them an IoCG, so they dont leg it off the table so easily. These things drive up the points costs and urt them as a choice. You can take havoc with four specials in rhinos, but again this is more for theme and less for competition.

I really dont rate preds at all. If you want them to do anything other than shoot at infantry they get insanely expensive and get out gunned by pretty much everything else. They are harder to kill than defilers but you do lose firepower.

CSM landraiders are bunkers, not gun boats. I usually hear cries of "But they cant move and shoot two weapons!", but this doesnt matter. If you want guns get some oblits. CSM landraiders are built to get your very powerful but very vulnerable short ranged and combat troops from your deployment zone to your opponents deployment zone. So fill them up with terminators/berzerkers/emperors childern, give them demonic possession and send them up the field. After they have delived their cargo, moving doesnt become so much of an issue so they can fire to their hearts content. They are also good for putting troops in an sitting on objectives. Good in specialised lists but for general use, oblits are better.

My Obliterator Cults always do me proud in every game I play, so I've got to vote for them.

Personally, I would never use Havocs in a HWT role, instead I use them as a cheap platform for a bunch of assault weapons. (If I can't take Chosen).

I would use defilers, but they always seem to fail me at crucial moments and they get popped really easily.

Its sad but true that Land Raiders got no votes. In comparison to the flexible and mobile gunships that Codex Marines have, our Land Raiders are either overpriced Predators or REALLY overpriced Rhinos.

I had to vote for the Defiler. Sure it won't get a save but AV12 + DP isn't quite as easy to stop as people make it out to seem. Considering the multiple weapons, anything short of a destroyed result is really just an annoyance. It also factors into the whole idea of target saturation. If they are blasting my Defiler, they aren't blasting my Rhinos.

Havocs and Land Raiders, baby.

Oblits, hands down. One unit of those ruined my Tau's day on more than one occasion.

Well, it seems that that Obliterators are by far dakka's favorite.
I'm going to have to invest in a pair myself.

Regwon wrote:1. Oblits give you more fire power, more versitility and more durability than any of the other options.


2, I really dont rate preds at all. If you want them to do anything other than shoot at infantry they get insanely expensive and get out gunned by pretty much everything else. They are harder to kill than defilers but you do lose firepower.
.

Here, lets kill 2 birds with one stone here:

Predator - 130 points - 2 lascannons, 2 autocannons. ~7% chance to destroy with lascannon

Obliterators x2 - 150 points - max 2 lascannons. ~40% chance to kill with a lascannon.


More flexible? Yes. Tougher and more firepower? Uhh, No. The predator isnt insanely expensive, its cheaper and puts out more shots than obliterators.

And how in the world are you losing firepower compared to a defiler? CC yes, shooting no.

I chose oblits cause they do well for me...but to the topic in general:
/facepalm...

Maybe we should just sticky the 137846394739257 threads about the CSM hvy support which is basically Oblits vs. Everything else...

Bottom Line: all the hvy support choices are functional and have specific reasons for being there.

I say the pred either variant.
Because they can turn out alot of firepower and are cheap.

I'm confused how people complain about havoc point costs. Do you mean the lascannon is expensive? I don't think any smart players that pick havocs choose lascannons these days. Autocannons give nearly as much punch, a second shot to ensure you're killing something, and a very cheap price. The biggest problem I have with obliterators is that , despite their incredible versatility, they only get one shot with any weapon for 75points. If anything should be getting complained about point-wise it should be oblits.

I usually roll with a few oblits and autocannon havocs. Gives me the versatility that ensures I'm hurting whatever my opponent can throw at me, while having an enormous amount of firepower to throw at my opponents transports/infantry/etc. Defilers have a very cool model but are too easily killed with too little done to my opponent when they drop. Vindicators need better secondary weapons/another main weapon choice before I start taking them. Land raiders have always been a transport to me and I think taking them as heavy support is just wasting your points. Predators are the third option I take occasionally, but I play an infantry-heavy army that works better with havocs/oblits.

Warboss Gakil Goreata wrote:I say the pred either variant.
Because they can turn out alot of firepower and are cheap.

Simply not true.

Preds, oblits, and defilers are the obvious contenders.

Predators have more firepower, and more durability.

Obliterators have more versatility and two valuable weapon systems that are hard to get in the Chaos book: plasma cannons and multimeltas, but are infantry which makes them inherently vulnerable in a 5th ed environment against a well-built list.

Defilers suffer from large size and having only one useful weapon, but can beat things up in CC pretty well, and daemonic possession on a CC walker is fun times.

Sanctjud wrote:but to the topic in general:
/facepalm...
Maybe we should just sticky the 137846394739257 threads about the CSM hvy support which is basically Oblits vs. Everything else...

Well its the only thing that is really debatable with the Chaos codex. Every other FOC choice tends to be almost hardwired in.
Kinda sad.

Obliterators, hands down.

I voted Oblits because they are probably the "best," but Defilers are my favorite.

oblits can get munched by heavy ordance sucha s demo cannons, though.

Not just heavy ordnance, but basically anything anyone cares to throw at them, and they do badly in assaults.

That said, the whole concept of a "best" heavy support unit is stupid. It's like the interminable "Is so-and-so a valid choice?" threads. If you think there's a best choice, you suck as a player. If you wonder if some option is valid: you suck as a player.

Your task as a player is not to pick the best unit out of a list and then let them do their thing on the table, your task is to pick the right combination of units that fit into your strategy and then to execute that strategy.

There is no 'best', else, what's the point of the other options?
Right Nurglitch?

CSM codex is meh, but it's not as bad as some have weeped about.

Use Oblits you wont be disappointed they offer alot to a army just put them in cover they will need it.

I think the point he was making is that there is an option and a loadout for every army , every player, and every situation/enemy. Obliterators are not the best in every situation. They are expensive, slow, easily killed, etc. Versatility is their one major saving grace and it just isn't always enough to make them worth taking. Is versatility worth losing potentially 4 shots of the same point cost?

I voted for the Vindy.

I love its fair durability, low cost and the fact I can put possession on it. Oblits are ok they seem to die too easily for their points imo.

I love the concept for the defiler, pretty much everything the model is sexy...

But armor 12 on such a huge puppy and ws3 is what kills me. But I'll buy one anyways.

True, everyone, Oblits are squashed in assault... although they might last a turn, depending on power weapons or not...

This poll is on the best - which probably is oblits, 'cause they're awesome all rounders. Usually, they will die, but they make a great distraction for your other units to advance.

Shoot them enough, the rest of the CSM's are on you.
Divide your firepower, they live to harrass you.

They get squished in assault -- don't let that happen then. Like any other unit, they need to be supported, because in 40k there's no such thing as a one man army. Only 'I'm a better unit than you!' and 'Yes you are but I wish you weren't!'

'Nuff said. Everything else has it's good points, and it really depends on what you're running - oblit heavy, vindy heavy, assault (LR) heavy, defiler spam or long range firepower. And there lies the advantage to having a large collection, like me

I'm not sure why everyone quotes assault as a weakness of Oblits. Yeah they don't do it well but they sure as hell do it better then a Predator or Vindicator. Only the Defiler can weather an assault better.

Yea but see my vindy isn't supposed to get assaulted.

Anything that doesn't die in the BOOM!! gets smacked by my daemon prince.

Now Oblits are damn fine when my army builds up I'll have a trio with my dual vindys.

It dismays me to see my beloved vindicators in second to last place

lordrevege wrote:It dismays me to see my beloved vindicators in second to last place

I think it's for two reasons:

1. They're loyalist equipment, so they don't help your Chaos army stand out (well-modeled possession can make a difference, though)
2. Chaos is a mostly short-ranged army. Being right in your enemy's face, and lobbing demolisher shells close by can be a disastrous combination.