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Chaos Dreadnoughts can also have Plasma Cannons. Just thought I might point that out if you're trying to say that Obliterators are the only unit in the Chaos Space Marine codex that have them.

Interestingly only four Havocs per Havoc unit can have Autocannons. If we suppose each Autocannon is 20 points and each Havoc wielding one is 15 points, then in total you would have 420 points. To make up the difference with 450 points you would then have to add at least two non-Autocannon wielding Havocs. And then you would need another one to bring each of the three Havoc units up to minimum squad size.

You'd use up one more Heavy Support slot and +15pts for 24 shots, 15 wounds, 30 attacks on the defense, 45 attacks on the charge, all I4.

For 15pts less you'd get two units of Obliterators for a maximum of 6 shots (though obviously more hits thanks to blast and template rules), 12 wounds, 12 attacks on the defense, 18 attacks on the charge, all at I1.

Obliterators work in Chaos armies because most everything else in the army is going to being rushing to get close to the enemy. So opponents typically focus on the land Raider/Rhinos or Demon Prices heading for their lines. if it wasn't for this effect I don't think Obliterators would be that great because they aren't that durable. But mine rarely take any fire before round 4. Also, having the option to deepstrike them, although I rarely do that, is a very nice piece of versatility.

Land Raiders are great delivery systems. And when an opponent is coming to you anyways it can usually sit back and fire a fair amount. I like them because I think Chaos really needs that long reaching threat of a 21" charge.

It depends on what you are up against. I have no idea about Obliterators, but out of the others I would go with the Predator. As it has the range and the firepower to blow most opposition away.

Nurglitch wrote:
Interestingly only four Havocs per Havoc unit can have Autocannons. If we suppose each Autocannon is 20 points and each Havoc wielding one is 15 points, then in total you would have 420 points. To make up the difference with 450 points you would then have to add at least two non-Autocannon wielding Havocs. And then you would need another one to bring each of the three Havoc units up to minimum squad size.

I'm aware of the 4 ac per unit, that's why I put 12 havocs up as the "max" we could pick(with normal force org rules). I'm also well aware that the total is 420 with 12 havocs and then to make up the difference from the oblits you would add 2 15pt havocs to "buffer for wounds". If you were forming an actual army list you would need to make each havoc squad a 5man squad, but as I said it was a quick comparison of shots to points. I was trying to show the oblit fans the disparity in volume with relatively the same amount of points. I could've left the wound stats out, but I wanted to show how many wounds they were getting per weapon.

Fatman wrote:Obliterators work in Chaos armies because most everything else in the army is going to being rushing to get close to the enemy. So opponents typically focus on the land Raider/Rhinos or Demon Prices heading for their lines. if it wasn't for this effect I don't think Obliterators would be that great because they aren't that durable. But mine rarely take any fire before round 4. Also, having the option to deepstrike them, although I rarely do that, is a very nice piece of versatility.

How are oblits different from say...heavy weapon havocs in not rushing towards the enemy (note I said heavy weapon havocs, excluding the special weapons + rhino choice that can be taken)? I think oblits are currently the most popular choice because they can fill a lot of different roles and kill a lot of different types of units with the most effective weapons that chaos can bring to bear.

Nurglitch wrote:Chaos Dreadnoughts can also have Plasma Cannons. Just thought I might point that out if you're trying to say that Obliterators are the only unit in the Chaos Space Marine codex that have them.

Interestingly only four Havocs per Havoc unit can have Autocannons. If we suppose each Autocannon is 20 points and each Havoc wielding one is 15 points, then in total you would have 420 points. To make up the difference with 450 points you would then have to add at least two non-Autocannon wielding Havocs. And then you would need another one to bring each of the three Havoc units up to minimum squad size.

You'd use up one more Heavy Support slot and +15pts for 24 shots, 15 wounds, 30 attacks on the defense, 45 attacks on the charge, all I4.

For 15pts less you'd get two units of Obliterators for a maximum of 6 shots (though obviously more hits thanks to blast and template rules), 12 wounds, 12 attacks on the defense, 18 attacks on the charge, all at I1.

Yea but chaos dreads can blow away your own guys firing two plasma cannon shots into your lines they just arent trustworthy (so although it can take a PC do you want it to have it). I think he was talking about a more safe choice. And to over ride havoc's i think is a mistake those autocannons rock light av and a oblit unit really doesnt have anything that can do it like a havoc squad you have weapons yes and a plasma cannon which scatters or a lascannon that can miss its one shot but 8 s7 shots at bs4 is great. Just pouring rounds into a mech army is the best thing you can do and i think havoc's fit that role the best for transport killing duty. Oblits are also good and they work the best together imo. But what your over looking with havocs is the S 8 to instant kill. Im just saying Havoc's and Oblits should be used together the oblits just dont have the amount of shots needed to really hurt a mech army not like a havoc squad can from my experiences.

Fire Frenzies from Chaos Dreadnoughts are only a problem if you take a disputed approach to the rules, that Dreadnoughts act like they did in 4th edition and have a 360 degree line of sight, rather than they do in 5th edition and have a line of sight 45 degrees in front of them (which is why the opportunity to pivot in the shooting phase is so vitally important for them). Just make sure your troops are standing beside or behind the Dreadnought. Then Fire Frenzy is a positive boon, giving you two Plasma Cannon shots. They may not choose the best target (like a nearby Land Raider instead of Terminators further away), but they're nowhere near as dangerous as the 4th edition hold-outs say.

But you're right, Autocannons are more flexible than Plasma Cannons, particularly where killing vehicles is concerned, and the ability to cause twice as many hits to Monstrous Creatures makes up for their lack of AP2. Oh, and the longer range. Likewise, take both. Use the Havocs to dismount troops from transports and mop them up with Plasma Cannon fire, or use Lascannons or Multi-Meltas to open Land Raiders, and light the Terminators up with enough saving throws that they fail a few.

I have to go with the 'blitz. Although they are not amazingly mobile they have a +5 invul which means they can survive hits that none of the other options can (except havocs with MoT).

They are themost versatile option. They can DS, and can take on both armour and infantry with their variety of weapons.


I play IW so i LOVE the vindicator, but they are just bullet agnets and rarely survive past turn 2 in my experience. Whereas many people miss the obliterator strolling round the flanks, popping of long range nasty shots as they go.


As for Havocs, TBH i tend to kit mine out for anti-infantry more than anti-armour. 2 autocannons and 2 heavy bolters can potentially ruin most infantry squads days with 6 S5 and 4 S7 shots.

I think as far as Chaos Heavy Support goes. They're all really good (varying on the situation). A daemonic possessed Vindicator in the right spot, will do more damage than two oblits. Just like a squad of havoks with four autocannons can potentially do more than oblits.

For versatility and cheapness. I think Predators are great still. Yes the only downfall is whenever you face ANY MEQ, they're probably fielding cheaper Preds vs you. But whatever. Predators are larger targets, they draw fire, and every shot at a AV 13 pred. Is one more shot that's not getting allocated towards your rhino.

I believe if you took an army that say consisted of this:
two DPs
four rhinos w/ troops
two squads of Oblits

Whats going to happen? Your oblits are going to be a hair more protected and safer because of the MC and AV swamping the field. But if you switched them out like so.
two DPs
Four rhinos w/ troops
three Dakka preds + havok launchers

Whats going to happen? Your dakka preds will take a lot more heat, most likely not score as many kills as the oblit groups (and cost a little bit more) but the thing is, think of how well off your rhino's are going to be. They're probably almost immune to enemy fire until meltagun range. (unless your playing the LoS game).

Normally when I play my army (3 rhinos, 2 preds, 1500pt) I don't take many shots at my rhino's at all until I'm in close in. As the enemy is more worried with the 9 shots I pour into his units per dakka pred (assuming all the weapons are firing)

Necromancy!

Jihallah wrote:Necromancy!

Threadnomancy.

Depends.

If you run a Rhino based army with Chosen and CSM in Rhinos, then I'd take Havocs in Rhinos, Predators, or Vindicator.

If you run a MC based army, then I'd take Defilers besides DPs, GP, and Dreads.

In a more balanced army, I'd also consider Obliterators, they pair well with the lash.

Obliterators FTW!

Oblits get my vote, they are very versatile and brilliant at drawing firepower due I find my opponents fraking out over the arsenal they carry, the yalso look awesome and fit in with my army (mainly khorne based). Yeah they are weak in combat, but they are better then pred's and vindy's, but not as good as a defiler.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:True, everyone, Oblits are squashed in assault... although they might last a turn, depending on power weapons or not...

I find mine don't often suffer from assault as my oppopnents either get wrapped up elsewhere (zerkers ) or if they do I find they can hold their own until against most opponents until help arrives, but then I might just be lucky.

My 2nd choice is the defiler, not used one yet (got mine yesterday and the next model to be added to my army ) but I think their only weakness is the armour, but IMHO my friend who has one in his nurgle army has only ever had 1 bad game with his defiler and this is usually against SM armies, with pred's, land raiders, dev's, the lot firing at it, again maybe it is insanely lucky!

I've tried a pred once or twice and found it didn't do much.

To be honest when it come's down to it, different players have different idea's what they feel/find works the best, the best thing to do is experiment and find what works best for you.

I do really like the Defiler...i just think mine is cursed to never last more than 2 turns.