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My favorite is Obliterator as well . The enemy always want to kill them so badly , that i can pretty much set traps and support the oblits against w/e they are throwing on them.

I voted Havocs. I usually field a oblit cult in game, sometimes 2, but my Havocs (mainly 2AC 2ML) been much more invaluable, for popping transports and being a distance pain in the neck, or blasting groups of infantry. Oblits are there for pure flexibility- they can do anything as far as i need heavy fire, but the weight of fire of the Havocs get the job done Good

I would agree that the HS slots do slightly different things (oblits can't morph a battle cannon, for example, and the pred can't shoot a multimelta). However, they all broadly perform 1 function- fire support. In this, the obliterators offfer the most flexibility and so are generally the best choice. However, there are certainly reasons why someone would want the battle or demolisher cannon, the AV 13 or the extra bodies. Personally, I prefer the Oblits ability to move and fire, pack plasma and multimelta and relative ease of getting cover for most lists. Assaults are kind of a bogus argument as most of the HS are weak in assault save the defiler and the Oblits are packing PFists, which can handle mediocre power armor troops.

The Land Raider is a completely different ketlle of fish and, as pointed out, not used as fire support like the other choices, but as an assaulty transport for terminators, berzerkers, etc. In that role, it is the only choice.

jmurph wrote:I would agree that the HS slots do slightly different things (oblits can't morph a battle cannon, for example, and the pred can't shoot a multimelta). However, they all broadly perform 1 function- fire support. In this, the obliterators offfer the most flexibility and so are generally the best choice. However, there are certainly reasons why someone would want the battle or demolisher cannon, the AV 13 or the extra bodies. Personally, I prefer the Oblits ability to move and fire, pack plasma and multimelta and relative ease of getting cover for most lists. Assaults are kind of a bogus argument as most of the HS are weak in assault save the defiler and the Oblits are packing PFists, which can handle mediocre power armor troops.

The Land Raider is a completely different ketlle of fish and, as pointed out, not used as fire support like the other choices, but as an assaulty transport for terminators, berzerkers, etc. In that role, it is the only choice.

Versatility is the best? What about volume of fire? Even if your weapon is able to hurt the target if you don't have enough volume of shots you are putting all your hopes in just a few dice rolls. I personally think a combination of the two (oblits and havocs for example) is far better than simply oblits. An autocannon havoc gets you 2x the chances of penetrating/killing whatever you point it at, and can hurt anything up to AV13 armor. A few oblits to support them ensures that those extra hard targets will go down, but you also have a lot of shots to back them up in case they fail.

It is a bit of a false dichotomy to try and pick a best one when combinations can work like a charm. A Land Raider packed full of Havocs armed with Flamers, for example. It sits back and knocks out transports and opposing tanks, and then, if it survives, can sprint up, and disgorge the Havocs to mop of the survivors.

Nurglitch wrote:It is a bit of a false dichotomy to try and pick a best one when combinations can work like a charm. A Land Raider packed full of Havocs armed with Flamers, for example. It sits back and knocks out transports and opposing tanks, and then, if it survives, can sprint up, and disgorge the Havocs to mop of the survivors.

But if you use chosen, you're only using up one HS slot instead of two.

Unless you're already planning on using your Elite slots for Terminators, Possessed, or Dreadnoughts.

Can we start talking about all the other options besides heavy support now?

What, you mean besides Land Raiders, Havocs, Obliterators, Defilers, Vindicators, and Predators?

I thought we were finally moving onto synergies between Heavy Support options, having left the infantile "A is better than B!" discussion behind in the first page...

Well, shouldn't we just start a new "Tactica: Chaos Space Marines"..., and let the infantile discussion remain in the infantile topic?

I mean...if we are going 'that' far in terms of synergies...

Given the question what is THE best chaos heavy choice, i voted obliterators. Generally, heavy support does as it is titled. They give heavy weapon fire support to other units. In my head the first thing that comes up it obliterators, which is what i voted. They have a large variety of weapons, all perfectly useable. But as previously stated all the heavy choices dont do the same thing. To measure a landraider by how much its lascannons kill would just be silly. To really answer this specific question a role for the heavy support needs to be defined.

And as it has also been mentioned, comparing apples to oranges really doesnt help much, when both apples and oranges work so much better together. My favorite combo by far is 2 defilers and a 3 man squad of obliterators. Defilers are huge fire magnets allowing obliterators to do their thing, and 2 battle cannons a turn is a scary thought.

Defining which singular unit is better seems rather irrelevant when combos work so much better and really should be used.

I voted Predator.

I use two in my army. Placing them seperate from each other in good locations gives me 4 shots with each per turn. This also means that the enemy have 2 seperate units to split fire on and taking on facing AV 13 doesnt fall that easily.

My problem with Preds is:
*Static to get maximum effect.
*Dawn of war silliness.
*Wide Side armor.
*Relatively expensive for what loyalists get for cheaper.

Otherwise, it's nifty and somewhat of a workhorse, but generally built for one job and one job alone, so for those that are looking for flexibility might not approach preds. Specilization, preds are pretty much all for it.

Asking what the best heavy support choice for CSM is like asking what's the best flavor of ice cream.

Most people will say vanilla (oblits) or chocolate (defilers)


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On the subject of predators.

When hell freezes and we get our new codex I'm sure the new CSM predator will be as cheap as the loyalist preds, but with chaos upgrades available.

A dakka pred with a havok launcher is actually pretty cool against a horde army.

I've been testing out a AC/LC pred with a havoc lately. It's a bit spendy, but AV13 is nothing to laugh at, and synergizes well with the mechanized nature of my army.

I use oblits, they have been to handy on too many occasions, the choice to have that many weapons on a unit is good enough for me.

I like oblits the best. They have the most options and best survivability if played right.

G

Oblits seem to be the most useful because they can fight any kind of enemy unit with their morphable weapons.

Oblits hands down. It just isnt worth fielding anythign else.

And its funny cause we all know that based on GW codex trends, next CSM codex will nerf the living feth out of them to the point of being the worst entry in the dex.

Well... it wasn't so bad from 3.5 to 4.
So it's not gonna be too bad. The worst they do is remove them...then oh well...

There is a rumor of CSM out for June........

Obliterators can fire multiple weapons making them one of the best HW units in the game

Yeah DE, Crons and DH as well. Join the club!

G

I run oblits because of the flexibility.

Things oblits have that predators don't:
Can move and fire to full effect.
Can peek out around a wall or something and shoot with every gun. A predator hiding halfway behind a building is only getting 1-2 shots, which is NOT more firepower than 2 obliterators (same price.)
Better guns and ability to assault.

There's a chance a pred takes longer to kill than an obliterator, but it also has a good chance of getting stunned and any useful weapons being blown off.

Oblits also deal with the niche of 2+ armor save groups better than one pred. They also have far more synergy with Lash. Lash a unit into a blob, unleash 2-3+ plasma cannons on it, wave goodbye to squad. 2-3 lascannon shots just don't do the same.
TL flamer + lash against hordes is great. I've had an oblit squad gun down monstrous creatures and then flame a full 10+ genestealer squad off the map as soon as they got close.
Multi-melta can punish any landraider advance. Oblits step up, pop raider, prince lashes the occupants backwards.
Linked meltas + 3 powerfist attacks each on the charge allow them a super-hammer at point blank range. After they'd taken down other threats, my squad of 3 took a hive tyrant down in one turn with shoot+assault.

If I wanted only anti-tank, I might take preds. I take oblits because they work equally well against enemies who don't focus on heavy armor.

/sigh...this is repetitive to no end...

Indeed. I'd say the majority consensus is obvious.

TheBloodGod wrote:I run oblits because of the flexibility.

I think this is the main reason to take oblits. Their biggest downfalls are their high point cost for a single infantry model, their lack of volume of shots (you can get 4 autocannon havoc shots for the price of one oblit), and their lack of upgrades/customization (ie a way to boost their toughness or invul save would be amazing).

TheBloodGod wrote:
Things oblits have that predators don't:
Can move and fire to full effect.

Yea, but how far is an oblit really moving? Also, the predator can move farther than an oblit on average, fire the same amount of weapons(or more) while moving, and then has the benefit of being able to stop and fire many more weapons than the oblit ever could. Volume of shots isn't everything, but your argument doesn't really hold up.

TheBloodGod wrote:
Can peek out around a wall or something and shoot with every gun. A predator hiding halfway behind a building is only getting 1-2 shots, which is NOT more firepower than 2 obliterators (same price.)
Better guns and ability to assault.

Almost everything you've said here is dependent on what the predator is equipped with. A base predator starts at 70 whereas an oblit is 75, and they start with an autocannon turret which is already double the amount of shots that a single oblit gets. A pred with AC turret + heavy bolter sponsons would be getting far more shots for less points. If they were armed with all lascannons (personally I find lascannons to be a waste in this edition of the 40k rules because of cover saves and the cost) you might be right.

Also, "better" is dependent on what gun you need. Tanks may not be able to "assault" but there is such a thing as tank shock which can be just as useful as an assault against the right kind of troops.

Thebloodgod wrote:
There's a chance a pred takes longer to kill than an obliterator, but it also has a good chance of getting stunned and any useful weapons being blown off.

Does this really prove anything? There are weapons that can single-shot an oblit or predator. Which one is easier to kill? Neither and both, depending on what weapons your opponent has. I would say that lots of armies these days are taking anti-mech which also includes high-strength weapons so you may come up against an army where both choices are easy to kill.

Thebloodgod wrote:
They also have far more synergy with Lash. Lash a unit into a blob, unleash 2-3+ plasma cannons on it, wave goodbye to squad. 2-3 lascannon shots just don't do the same.

2-3 lascannon shots isnt really the best use of a predator in this day and age. Much better off with an AC turret + heavy bolter sponsons. 3 oblits = 225pts which is more points than 2 dakka preds which have the potential to kill far more regular infantry.
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Personally I run a mix of 1 oblit squad with 2 havoc squads (armed with 4x AC on one squad and 2x AC/2x ML on the other). The oblits ensure I'm hurting anything I need hurt and the havocs provide insane amounts of high strength long range shots to drop transports, infantry, or whatever else I need dead in a hurry. I also sometimes swap the ML/AC havocs for a squad in a rhino with special weapons (usually flamers or meltas) to roll up with the regular troops and melt faces/vehicles to goo(aren't slouches in CC either).

I think Oblits are probably the best unit in the codex, that and daemon princes.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think Oblits are probably the best unit in the codex, that and daemon princes.

G

Yeah, as someone that plays a very good Chaos player about every weekend....I tend to agree. Winged Warptime Princes are fast and smash face. Oblits in cover are very frustrating to deal with and dangerous to approach.

Princes----Oblits----Plague Marines are pretty much the upper tier of the dex.

Havocs are also nasty i know a few players that use a full autocannon squad of them and they crush light av vechs pouring out 8 str 7 shots. All the Hvy weapons are good all depends on your strat and variety always helps.

I think anyone saying oblits are the only choice worth taking need to take another look at havocs. Using the correct weapon for the job is important, but even the perfect weapon is going to miss/fail to wound/get saved/etc so volume is just as essential. Havocs provide high str volume on the cheap and the oblits bring the proper weapon(and plasma cannons, the only place we can get them). Mixing the two units together (2 squad of havocs + 2-3 oblits is my usual heavy support at 1800-2000pts).

Quick comparison of shots with max # of havocs:

12 havocs /w autocannons (420 pts) - 24 shots , 12 wounds. 30 point difference allowing for 2 more havocs to buffer for wounds.

6 oblits (450) - 6 shots, 12 wounds.

There is of course also the option of rolling with 3 oblits or so as long range support, and 2 squads of rhinos with flamers/meltas to rush forward with the main bulk of the troops and bring down key units. Havocs are exactly the same as a regular csm and can do just as well in close combat(still gaining an extra attack on the charge) and can be given a CC mark as well if you wish. For a cheap, flexible, hard-hitting, fast-moving infantry unit there are none better.