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So I just looked at the thread about the Deathleaper and Unique models, and it occured to me that an Iron Priest is not a character and do is not affected by "*The Leaders of the Pack"

my reasoning behind this conclusion...

The BRB defines characters into 2 categories, Independant and Upgrade.

The Iron Priest is not an Independant character, and under no circumstances does he gain the IC status.

The Iron Priest is not an Upgrade character because he is an integral part of the unit, he is not optional, nor an upgrade.

The Leaders of the Pack only applies to "characters", which the Iron Priest is not.



So I could have an army with 3 units of Iron Priests, all with Saga of the Iron Wolf, 4 Wolves and 3 Servitors inside Land Raider Redeemers with a few units of Grey Hunters and an HQ

super-resilient land raiders FTW

discuss.

Huh, good point.

so if you have 3 Servitors + Saga of the Iron Wolf, does that mean you repair on a 1+?

SinSygon wrote:so if you have 3 Servitors + Saga of the Iron Wolf, does that mean you repair on a 1+?

Yes.

yeah,
No, A roll of 1 is always a fail..

Panic...

^ The roll doesn't mention 1 being an auto-fail anywhere, it just requires the total to be 5 or more.

Panic wrote:yeah,
No, A roll of 1 is always a fail..

Panic...

there is no such rule ... characteristics tests auto fail on a 6 but good luck finding a rule that say all other test fail on a 1.

Panic wrote:yeah,
No, A roll of 1 is always a fail..

Panic...

Yeah,
no, read the rules before posting please.

There is no such rule.

The argument that "he cannot be an upgrade character as he is not optional or an upgrade" seems to be flawed, as SM sarges are non-optional in a tac marine squad, and so by that reasoning would not be an upgrade character.

This does make determining the status harder - is it *always* an upgrade character, even with no retinue?

Panic - that is a common fallacy, born out of armour saves cannot be better than 2+ (therefore a roll of a 1 is always a fail) and that to-wound rolls always fail on a roll of a 1. There is NO such general rule however, as has been pointed out to you!

He is entirely an upgrade character as nosferatu has pointed out.

he is a special model in the unit with a unique statistics line and unique access to wargear, he is the very definition of an upgrade character.

That being said, he is NOT subject to the Leaders of the Pack rule, not because he is not a character, but because he is not a HQ selection.

edit: just realised he doesn't have to be accompanied by other models, it is a bit of a funky situation, since he wouldn't be a character if he doesn't have a unit with him, but would be a character with one, either way, the only thing that would be effected by this (that I can think of) is deathleaper.

double edit: Just to be clear, I would say an upgrade character is any model who can only appear once in a unit and has a seperate stat line listed and/or a seperate set of wargear options.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The argument that "he cannot be an upgrade character as he is not optional or an upgrade" seems to be flawed, as SM sarges are non-optional in a tac marine squad, and so by that reasoning would not be an upgrade character.

yes but in this case he is the unit everything else is add to him ...

... also before the new SM you had to upgrade some one to be a Sergent, now they come as just a Sergent and you don't upgrade any one; so they aren't technically upgrade characters any more since you didn't need to upgrade any one.

Tri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:The argument that "he cannot be an upgrade character as he is not optional or an upgrade" seems to be flawed, as SM sarges are non-optional in a tac marine squad, and so by that reasoning would not be an upgrade character.

yes but in this case he is the unit everything else is add to him ...

... also before the new SM you had to upgrade some one to be a Sergent, now they come as just a Sergent and you don't upgrade any one; so they aren't technically upgrade characters any more since you didn't need to upgrade any one.

Being an upgrade character is not dependant on whether or not you had to pay/choose to upgrade someone to that role.

The BRB defines an upgrade character as a model that "[does] not have an entry of their own and are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices."

The concept that you have to actually choose to upgrade someone to that role has no basis in the rules.

Its just where the name comes from. (Yes clearly he is but i'm having fun ...)

In the case of the Iron priest he is the default unit. Unless you would be of the view that they're all upgrade characters?

"[does] not have an entry of their own and are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices." covers servitors well and since they also get a different profile also covers the cyberwolves.

Tri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:The argument that "he cannot be an upgrade character as he is not optional or an upgrade" seems to be flawed, as SM sarges are non-optional in a tac marine squad, and so by that reasoning would not be an upgrade character.

yes but in this case he is the unit everything else is add to him ...

... also before the new SM you had to upgrade some one to be a Sergent, now they come as just a Sergent and you don't upgrade any one; so they aren't technically upgrade characters any more since you didn't need to upgrade any one.

THat isnt correct; the BRB is very clear on what an Upgrade character is defined as, and a SM Sarge *always* counts as one regardless of needing to be bought. All thet is required is that the model is "just a member of the squad" and has its own unique statline and equipment.

AS I pointed out does this mean the IP *always* counts as an upgrade, even when no models are bought with him? "Yes" is consistent in application at least, and I would say analogous to a SM sarge still being unique even if the unit dies around them.

Gwar! wrote:

Panic wrote:yeah,
No, A roll of 1 is always a fail..

Panic...

Yeah,
no, read the rules before posting please.

There is no such rule.

yeah,
sorry thought a 1 is always a fail for tests of this kind... saves /to hit/ repairs etc...

But still this isn't your forum Gwar, I have read the rules and will post what I like here, incorrect or other wise.. can't wait to meet you at nottingham to see if your a douch in real life.

I also think IronPriests are Intended to be heroic characters in a spacewolf army and IMO, RAI is that they should be unique.

Panic...

Tri wrote:Its just where the name comes from. (Yes clearly he is but i'm having fun ...)

In the case of the Iron priest he is the default unit. Unless you would be of the view that they're all upgrade characters?

"[does] not have an entry of their own and are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices." covers servitors well and since they also get a different profile also covers the cyberwolves.

but there can be multiple servitors, and can be multiple cyberwolves, so they aren't a model with an entry all of their own, nor do they have a weapon/wargear choice exclusive to them as a model, because it is shared with others.

The Iron Priest is an Upgrade Character because he is the sole model using that stat line and those weapon/wargear options.

Panic wrote:yeah,
sorry thought a 1 is always a fail for tests of this kind... saves /to hit/ repairs etc...

But still this isn't your forum Gwar, I have read the rules and will post what I like here, incorrect or other wise.. can't wait to meet you at nottingham to see if your a douch in real life.

I also think IronPriests are Intended to be heroic characters in a spacewolf army and IMO, RAI is that they should be unique.

Panic...

It is frustrating when you go into a simple thread and the first 3-4 answers are misinformation which is not a matter of interpretation but simply a case of people not knowing the rules.

For example just recently there was a thread on moving and shooting ordnance were people said you couldn't do it before Gwar! beat me to correcting them. While it's largely minor, it's frustrating still that people are trying to help with something they clearly don't know enough about.

I wouldn't expect my dentist to offer to help me fix my car...

Also, regardless of whether you think Iron Priests are characters or not, GW chose to only apply the rule regarding taking unique characters to the HQ choices, so the RAW is absolutely clear cut in this case that Iron Priests do not have to take unique wargear combinations.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Tri wrote:Its just where the name comes from. (Yes clearly he is but i'm having fun ...)

In the case of the Iron priest he is the default unit. Unless you would be of the view that they're all upgrade characters?

"[does] not have an entry of their own and are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices." covers servitors well and since they also get a different profile also covers the cyberwolves.

but there can be multiple servitors, and can be multiple cyberwolves, so they aren't a model with an entry all of their own, nor do they have a weapon/wargear choice exclusive to them as a model, because it is shared with others.

The Iron Priest is an Upgrade Character because he is the sole model using that stat line and those weapon/wargear options.

Iron priest is the unit ... you can only have the unit if you have 1 Iron Priest ... he may be field on his own or you may add to the unit C.wolves and/or Servitors.

There is nothing in the rules for upgrade characters that they must be singular only that they are field as part of the unit from the start of the game. Base type for the unit is Iron priest (even thought you can only have one) every one else is add to the unit with their own stat line.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Tri wrote:Its just where the name comes from. (Yes clearly he is but i'm having fun ...)

In the case of the Iron priest he is the default unit. Unless you would be of the view that they're all upgrade characters?

"[does] not have an entry of their own and are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices." covers servitors well and since they also get a different profile also covers the cyberwolves.

but there can be multiple servitors, and can be multiple cyberwolves, so they aren't a model with an entry all of their own, nor do they have a weapon/wargear choice exclusive to them as a model, because it is shared with others.

The Iron Priest is an Upgrade Character because he is the sole model using that stat line and those weapon/wargear options.

Panic wrote:yeah,
sorry thought a 1 is always a fail for tests of this kind... saves /to hit/ repairs etc...

But still this isn't your forum Gwar, I have read the rules and will post what I like here, incorrect or other wise.. can't wait to meet you at nottingham to see if your a douch in real life.

I also think IronPriests are Intended to be heroic characters in a spacewolf army and IMO, RAI is that they should be unique.

Panic...

It is frustrating when you go into a simple thread and the first 3-4 answers are misinformation which is not a matter of interpretation but simply a case of people not knowing the rules.

For example just recently there was a thread on moving and shooting ordnance were people said you couldn't do it before Gwar! beat me to correcting them. While it's largely minor, it's frustrating still that people are trying to help with something they clearly don't know enough about.

I wouldn't expect my dentist to offer to help me fix my car...

Also, regardless of whether you think Iron Priests are characters or not, GW chose to only apply the rule regarding taking unique characters to the HQ choices, so the RAW is absolutely clear cut in this case that Iron Priests do not have to take unique wargear combinations.

Although RAI may have been that Leaders of the pack holds its restrictions over the Iron Priest, I think you are actually the incorrect one in this situation.

"another trooper in the unit" would in fact be the Iron Priest if he is selected as a unit of one with no buddies.

Tri wrote:Iron priest is the unit ... you can only have the unit if you have 1 Iron Priest ... he may be field on his own or you may add to the unit C.wolves and/or Servitors.

There is nothing in the rules for upgrade characters that they must be singular only that they are field as part of the unit from the start of the game. Base type for the unit is Iron priest (even thought you can only have one) every one else is add to the unit with their own stat line.

We clearly aren't going to get anywhere, I feel an upgrade character is a model in a unit with a unique statline and/or wargear options, which is supported by the Rules, you feel that it's dependant on the "basic model" which comprises the unit, which is not an idea which is ever mentioned with regards to upgrade characters in the rules.

But I doubt any of what I just said will change your mind about it.

Demogerg wrote:Although RAI may have been that Leaders of the pack holds its restrictions over the Iron Priest, I think you are actually the incorrect one in this situation.

"another trooper in the unit" would in fact be the Iron Priest if he is selected as a unit of one with no buddies.

I don't understand what you are saying I am incorrect about, the fact the Iron Priest is an upgrade character, or the fact that Leaders of the Pack only applies to HQ choices?

Drunkspleen wrote:

Tri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:The argument that "he cannot be an upgrade character as he is not optional or an upgrade" seems to be flawed, as SM sarges are non-optional in a tac marine squad, and so by that reasoning would not be an upgrade character.

yes but in this case he is the unit everything else is add to him ...

... also before the new SM you had to upgrade some one to be a Sergent, now they come as just a Sergent and you don't upgrade any one; so they aren't technically upgrade characters any more since you didn't need to upgrade any one.

Being an upgrade character is not dependant on whether or not you had to pay/choose to upgrade someone to that role.

The BRB defines an upgrade character as a model that "[does] not have an entry of their own and are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices."

The concept that you have to actually choose to upgrade someone to that role has no basis in the rules.

The part that I have bolded should be the definitive section of the rule.

The Iron Priest does have an entry of his own in the codex. This by itself prevents the IP from being an Upgrade Character, regardless of whether or not servitors or wolves are added.

So Karanak, a named Flesh Hound with his own entry in the codex, but purchased as an option for a Flesh Hound squad, isn't an upgrade character because of the "they don not have an entry of their own" clause? And then there's Telion in the Space Marine codex. And on and on.

Salviden, I think you may be misunderstanding what they mean by that phrase.

solkan wrote:So Karanak, a named Flesh Hound with his own entry in the codex, but purchased as an option for a Flesh Hound squad, isn't an upgrade character because of the "they don not have an entry of their own" clause? And then there's Telion in the Space Marine codex. And on and on.

Salviden, I think you may be misunderstanding what they mean by that phrase.

No, I do not think I did misunderstand.

The clause states that upgrade characters do not have an entry of their own. My interpretation is that upgrade characters do not have their own entry in the army list section of the codex. Upgrade characters are a sub-part of another unit entry and cannot be otherwise purchased without first purchasing the parent unit. If the quote about having their own "entry" referred to the fluff/rules section at the front of the newer codices and not to the army list section, then none of those named unit special characters are "Upgrade Characters," because they all have their own section (Arjac Rockfist, for example).

Karanak and Telion are both Upgrade Characters because "they don't have an entry of their own." The fact that they do not have their own entry in the army list section and cannot be purchased without first purchasing the parent unit is what makes them an upgrade character.

The Iron Priest is its own entry in the army list section of the codex. It can only be purchased as its own selection from the Elites portion of the SW army list, and can be upgraded with other models like wolves and servitors (an argument might be made that wolves and servitors are upgrade characters, as they cannot be taken on their own without first taking the Iron Priest unit; this is further supported by the fact that the wolves the Iron Priest can take are the same wolves that are definitely Upgrade Characters for the wolf packs that appear in the SW Fast Attack section).

Edited: I can't type.