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So, I've been pondering this for a while, and I still don't understand why orks have such a low strength. Any ideas?

Its because actual orks are no larger than your average human. Nobz are bigger hense why they are bigger and tougher. But normal orks are bout as strong maybe slightly over what a normal human is.

I've been pondering this for a while: Why do Orks have better shooting than Imperial Space Marines?

From Dark Heresy on characteristic scores:
26-35 : Average : range of humans
41-45 : Great : An Orks Strength

Don't know how true to background dark heresy is but it would seem orks should be stronger than humans however it doesn't mention anything on astartes stats so I couldn't compare it to a S4 SM.

As someone who has both assembled over a hundred orks and numerous models with catachan arms, I can tell you that the ork arms are far larger and more heavily muscled than even very well built humans would be. Orks don't stand taller than your average human; they are a lot larger. They're much more heavily built, especially in their upper body, and their height is lowered by their hunch. They can rip humans apart bare handed, and probably weigh at least 50% more.

My guess is that their low strength represents a specific fighting style; notice that orks have 2 attacks base, while even troops as well trained as space marines only have one. This suggests that they favor a lot of strikes, or grapples, with less focus on making sure that they're killing blows.

And from a game standpoint, Ork models are cheap and expected to be fielded in quantity. Giving ork boyz greater strength would mean a six point model would have the capacity to rip apart most any infantry in their path. Larger strength scores reflect monstrous creatures, bigger creatures, or those augmented by genetic engineering or metallic exosuits/skeletons i.e. Tau Crisis Suits, Space Marines, ect.

Your average Boy is no stronger than a human, BUT to compensate, Orks have furious charge and better than average WS and Attacks. This reflects their melee ability rather than their raw strength.

Orks also have 2 attacks, the way I figure it, an Ork packs the power of a human in each arm.

Orks have CRUD strength because they got NERFED, man! NERFED, I tell you!

Yes, take a look at any Ork Model. These guys are GORILLAS! They will BEAT YOUR BIPPY to a pulp, man. TO A PULP!

So yes, they did it all for game balance reasons. Someone at GW thought about the Ork Army (horde) and imagined what it would be like for 100+ Orks to come running towards you with S4, then have their S upped to 5 on the charge - and after imagining that, I think he wet himself.

"Oh no, we can't have that!"

BEANS I say! BEANS!

If you want LOTS of models on the table with LOW STRENGTH, that's what Grots are for, not ORKS!

Now, don't get me wrong - I like the S4 pretty well on the Charge, but it gets old fast when the charge is over and your AWESOME ORKS suddenly all revert to S3 and get weak all of a sudden. LAME!

Ah well, thanks for enjoying my rant.
Solorg (S3?????)

I like the one human in each arm haha. And yes, I see the OPness in strength 5 charge I suppose.

Background-wise, orks are far stronger than humans. Thier arms and torso are far bulkier and muscular and, if they straghtened thier hunched backs, they'd tower over a human.

The only reason they are not S4 is, as has been said, is for game terms. A massive horde of S4 killing machines with two attacks is kinda OP.

I'm more concerned with our messily 6+ save. A lot of fluff makes mention of ork's ability to rapidly regenerate after being apparently defeated in the field and can jump right back up after sleeping it off for a few hours after the battle.

I propose for the next codex a new special rule:

"Wat hit me?"

After the game is finished and your opponent is about to pack up their models, roll one dice for ork that was removed as a causality. On a 5+ they get back up for 'onavur' go! Play an additional game turn.

All kidding aside, I do despise the horrible feeling in the second round of combat, when all the boyz get rubbery around the knees and drop to 3 S. Pain in the rump!

Yeah, Orks should probably be stronger to reflect the fluff, but Marines should be stronger as well with the same logic. IIRC 3rd through 5th edition were simplifications of 2nd which was a simplification 1st edition. I seem to remember that Orks at one point in time had a Strength value that was halfway between IG and Marines. This is why Dark Heresy has there value listed as somewhat higher than humans. Furious charge is important fluffwise because it shows that Orks in combat get bigger and meaner. Humans generally encounter Orks when they are charging at them, after a few seconds of that the Humans are either dead or running, which makes the Orks look very strong in Fluff.

Let me present an analogy for the technically minded. If 40k were put into digital terms it would have a low quantization (bit) rate. There are many measurements to be taken, but the system does not allow for all the variance possible, so the results are normalized to fit the model. This happens with a lot of things in life, we just don't notice. Orks should be S3.5, but 40k doesn't have S3.5, so the result is S3.

To make up for this, Orks are given two attacks to repreent their ferocity. Which mean that they have the speed and power efficiency to hit twice in a set amount of time with the same amount of force that a Human can strike once with in the same amount of time. Since frequency (how often he hits), time, and power (strength) are all related, they are twice as strong as humans. More so when enraged and charging into battle.


10 Tac Marines and 30 Orks Sluggas get into a barfight. I am going to be on the 30 Orks Sluggas. Especially if the Orks started it. Waaaaaaagh!!!

jw7007 wrote:
Let me present an analogy for the technically minded. If 40k were put into digital terms it would have a low quantization (bit) rate. There are many measurements to be taken, but the system does not allow for all the variance possible, so the results are normalized to fit the model. This happens with a lot of things in life, we just don't notice. Orks should be S3.5, but 40k doesn't have S3.5, so the result is S3.

This.

If there was a .5 system for 40k, that would be the greatest thing ever. Why, you ask?

A metric ****load of variation.

Space Marine chapter Masters? Maybe WS6, BS5, S4.5, T4.5

Eldar heros? S3.5, T3.5

Orks? S3.5 for their base guys. Maybe reduce their WS to 3.5 to compensate.

Sooooo much more variation and uniqueness. 6th edition 40k NEEDS this.

The Orks have plenty of drawbacks even if they rock in CC without eavy armor (or Ard boyz), shooty armies blast em up, greatly reducing there numbers and effectivness once there in close to chop em up (although with Transports its a bit different). WS 4 and T 4, reflect how durable an ork is. plus Leadership tests will most likely fail unless bosspole is used and a lucky roll is made, and then look out! its a sweeping advance, look 12 dead orks. Tis the sad truth, if orks fail they fail hard.

There was a whole thread on this where it was proposed to give orks S4, WS3 and remove furious charge. It had a pretty good debate on both sides; you might search for it and read it.

Basically, it comes down to game balance and mechanics trumping fluff. Orks are much larger than men, as shown by the models and the fluff. Orks are larger scale than Space Marines, who supposedly stand 8' tall. Stand them side by side, the basic boy is larger than a Space Marine in all proportions. And from personal experience, even though these are 28mm scale figures, I've used bits from 54mm models such as hats, etc. for my orks. Further, the fluff usually describes them as the height of a man, "though he would stand much taller if he would stand up straight," or something along those lines. So, there is reasonable justification for the higher strength argument.

But, as described above, the balance is in the 2 base attacks, furious charge, WS4. Personally, I would rather ditch furious charge and even WS4 for the permanent S4, which would give them more staying power, and maybe give them a higher Initiative bonus on the charge to represent the Waaagh. Is that overpowered for 6 points, given the no armor, WS reduced to 3, and bad initiative base (so they get hammered when charged)? Maybe, maybe not.

Anyway, you couldn't just up the Ork strength to 4 without really rewriting how they play overall. Plus, you would have to restructure the nobz and warbosses because of their size-based leadership track. Another option would be to reintroduce "skarboyz," which were +1S boyz taken similarly to 'Ard Boyz. That would give you a S4 option without radically restructuring the ork fluff... again.

Let me present an analogy for the technically minded. If 40k were put into digital terms it would have a low quantization (bit) rate. There are many measurements to be taken, but the system does not allow for all the variance possible, so the results are normalized to fit the model. This happens with a lot of things in life, we just don't notice. Orks should be S3.5, but 40k doesn't have S3.5, so the result is S3.

Yea that makes sense. I suppose it's the best decision to keep the game balanced

Another option would be to reintroduce "skarboyz," which were +1S boyz taken similarly to 'Ard Boyz. That would give you a S4 option without radically restructuring the ork fluff... again.

I've heard about the infamous skarboyz and wish they were in this edition

I figure that each point increase in a stat represents an order of magnitude, rather like the Richter Scale.

Furious Charge represents a great compromise between S3 and S4 because it forces the Ork player to play aggressively.

I understand the balance issue, I just remain to be convinced. Orks need a high volume of attacks when you consider they are going to suffer significant degradation to their fighting capabilities in initiative order before they ever get to strike.

I easily lose 8-12 boyz against SW Grey Hunters at I 4 if I have the charge, usually meaning I lose another 4-8 from fearless wounds at the end of combat.

If the rumors are true that BA will have STR 5 I 5 furious charge with preferred enemy bubbles, 30 boy Ork mobs are going to implode when they get charged.

They already implode if Berzerkers and the like charge them. If you're having trouble with getting charged by heavy-hitters like Grey Hunters and the like, take Shoota Boyz and bubble-wrap your Boyz in Gretchin to absorb any charges and to provide cover. They'll die, but that's what they're for. Even better, bubble-wrap your Burnas and then flame the Marines with death by a hundred fiery automatic hits*

Well, isn't it telling that a close combat army like the orks would have to go to such measures to protect themselves against other CC armies? Doesn't that suggest they are underperforming somehow? I don't know if S4 is the answer (probably not) but somewhere in the mix of base S3, I2, Fearless wounds, and no armor there's a bit of a problem in there. This is a big reason I run shoota boyz almost exclusively now. The slugga boy is not an elite assault choice, at least not the way he was in 3rd Ed when I last played. They are ok in hordes, but 12 in a trukk is almost useless and 20 in a battlewagon still needs to hit smaller, non-CC specialists to guarantee success.

I wouldn't say trukk boyz are useless. It's just very necessary to get them safe into a CC you know they can win - for example, against an Imperial Guard Platoon Command Squad. Normal IG Infantry squads are okay, too, although with 12 counterattacks / 6 hits / 2 wounds you're already losing manpower on an alarming rate. On the plus side: 12 Boyz are 72 points that, if you get them to their target, are very able to rip apart 100+pts non-CC-specialist units (thinking of vets with special weapons right now, important part of many of today's IG armies).

Against CC specialists, it helps if you got a big mob of orks with the traditional hidden powerklaw, I think. It's not great, and orks will die, but this is the orky way of life and might win you the combat.

I think reintroducing Skarboyz and some version of the old Waagh! and Mob Up rule would be quite interesting, but the problem is that even as they are right now, Ork boyz can wreak most anything and are one of the cheapest units. Would messing with their stats be fluffy? Yes. Would it screw up the codex, and by extension the whole game? Definitely.

Luke_Prowler wrote:I think reintroducing Skarboyz and some version of the old Waagh! and Mob Up rule would be quite interesting, but the problem is that even as they are right now, Ork boyz can wreak most anything and are one of the cheapest units. Would messing with their stats be fluffy? Yes. Would it screw up the codex, and by extension the whole game? Definitely.

I'd be perfectly willing to go back to 8 points per model in exchange for any two of the following;

-S4, WS3 standard. This makes them slightly more powerful, while also being fluffy.

-I3 standard. This allows them to strike simultaneously with Space Marines and before GEQs when they charge.

-5+ armor save standard. This keeps a few more alive in close combat, while not having much effect at all while they cross the field.

-Option to take burnas as special weapons in Boyz mobs. Say 10 points each. I want my damn burnas back!

-Stikkbombs (assault grenades) standard. Since Orks are maniacally focused on close combat and blowing things up, why aren't they carrying things wot go boom to help them get into the fight? Plus, grenades are just fun. Orks should have them for that reason alone.

-The return of the old Choppa rules. If this is the option taken, then it should be the only one, it in conjunction with the others would be too powerful. But I loved that rule. . .

I think the low Init is the main handy cap for the Orks. It's not uncommon for smaller units, like trukk boyz, or Snikrot & Kommandos, to be completely devastated by even mediocre CC units at higher initiative, making their attacks back a pathetic thing. You find yourself, as an Ork player, relying heavily on the Power Klaw or Burna to make up the kill ratio. If they whiff, you typically find yourself in a world of hurt.

Saying that the worst BS army in the game has to rely on their shooting is somewhat... odd.

I think the WS 4 is important because it means MEQs need 4+ to hit. the 4+ to hit and 4+ to wound I think is better defensively than a 5+ save.

(mathed out, 24 MEQ attacks vs. ws 3, T 4, 5+: 5.23 wounds. 24 MEQ attacks versus WS 4 T4 6+: 5.04 wounds)

I think the most feasable two options would be I3 and AS 5+
and out of curiosity, what were the old choppa rules?

I dont know who said bring back the old choppa rule, that non sense was broken as hell. Hurr my 80 point group of boyz just tore your terminators up.

Game wise boyz should probably be slightly better. But then again so should a lot of things. Wheres my marines with 6 on every stat but attacks and wounds?

What was the old choppa rule?

Any army better then 4+ is now magically a 4+.

4+ save? O.o

It seems that most things strength is relative to the Marines. Since a boy is supposed to be weaker than a marine but stronger than a human they get an extra attack to balance it out. If they made a standard boy S4 then Marines would be S5 and everything would just keep going further and further until everybody started complaining........more.