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the_ferrett wrote:*snorts* Some of us prefer not to spam KFF HQs

Rather than be snobbish, think about what I was posting.
5th Edition offers covers saves for darn near anything. That means terrain, other units, etc.

I'd love to say that all the IG, SM, and Tau units are competitive...but they just aren't. At 40 points a piece, Ogryn are pretty worthless...and there are numerous threads on Fire Warriors.

I was befuddled as well, and here's my not so great explanation.

It seems the current fluff portrays Orks in combat like barbarians, reckless on the charge but lacking the discipline that Space Marines and other armies do to maintain themselves, and are easily disheartened by battles of attrition.

Che-Vito wrote:
I'd love to say that all the IG, SM, and Tau units are competitive...but they just aren't. At 40 points a piece, Ogryn are pretty worthless...and there are numerous threads on Fire Warriors.

Tau haven't been updated for 5th edition yet. You have a right to complain about an army list that isn't updated for the new rules and to compete against the 5th edition codices.

Now for IG and SM-- their basic troops are good. Ours are not.
While an Ork boy is good for his cost- it's not enough to run them in hordes or to try to put them into transports because it works against them.

They don't have the armor to survive footslogging unless we spam KFF fields. They don't have the staying power in an assault because we lose fearless wounds, have weak Ld on troops without the mob rule, and are only effective as footsloggers with shootas due to mechanized armies being able to stay away from the charge (we are an assault army). Unlike Tyranids, we don't have fleet all the time, we don't have biomorphs to give everyone better armor or poisoned attacks or high initiative.
We rely purely on numbers- which are easily thinned and run down.

Then you try to counter the footslogging weakness by putting 12 boyz in a trukk. Now we've lost all advantages of having superior numbers in order to counter our speed disadvantage.
We are still vulnerable to shooting, still no staying power in an assault because we die easily and our Ld will fail even faster without the extra numbers.


Not saying I dislike playing Orks- but we're an assaulty army that relies heavily on our shooting to win games.

Our basic troop doesn't win games, it's the elite troops that all vie for the same spots that we rely on. Nobs, Lootas, Burnas all are excellent units- but we can't take enough of them all without taking up the slots for each other that we need.
Our Fast Attack choices are good, but flimsy. Our Heavy Support is only BattleWagons because the other choices are just not as good as a BW. Kan wall armies are the alternative to battlewagons, but once again- we have to spam KFF Meks in order for it to be truly viable and it still relies heavily on our shooting.


By all means, fix Fire Warriors- but there's still holes in the Ork army keeping us from matching other assaulty armies.

What assault army dont orks match?

Space wolves is all I can think of.

In_Theory wrote:
By all means, fix Fire Warriors- but there's still holes in the Ork army keeping us from matching other assaulty armies.

Orks do not have to be an assault-army. Certainly they are good at it, but I've played against very successful shooty-Ork builds. If your complaint is that Orks *should* be all assault and *aren't*...then consider a different army.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:What assault army dont orks match?

Space wolves is all I can think of.

^This.
I always play to get my slugga boyz into combat with the enemy. Even just 10 Orks has the potential to put down half a squad of marines on the charge. Or, to put it in other words, if your orks hit another players lines, something are gonna get hurt
Cheers!

Statistically speaking, 10 Orks will lose 3 Boys when they charge Tac Marines, and will kill 4 Marines in return. So Orks win that combat. And thats just 10 Orks, you'll probably have like 20 charging in.

Snikkyd wrote:Statistically speaking, 10 Orks will lose 3 Boys when they charge Tac Marines, and will kill 4 Marines in return. So Orks win that combat. And thats just 10 Orks, you'll probably have like 20 charging in.

Now compare the cost.

Che-Vito wrote:

Snikkyd wrote:Statistically speaking, 10 Orks will lose 3 Boys when they charge Tac Marines, and will kill 4 Marines in return. So Orks win that combat. And thats just 10 Orks, you'll probably have like 20 charging in.

Now compare the cost.

What? The Orks would lose like, 18 points worth, the Marines lost 64 points worth. lol.

You may even get them to run off the board.

Snikkyd wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Snikkyd wrote:Statistically speaking, 10 Orks will lose 3 Boys when they charge Tac Marines, and will kill 4 Marines in return. So Orks win that combat. And thats just 10 Orks, you'll probably have like 20 charging in.

Now compare the cost.

What? The Orks would lose like, 18 points worth, the Marines lost 64 points worth. lol.

You may even get them to run off the board.

This is why Orks don't need fixing.

/endthread

I think a simple fix would be to make bw dedicated transports for boyz, it lets them move faster and gives and decent sized unit that can do some damage.

Geemoney wrote:I think a simple fix would be to make bw dedicated transports for boyz, it lets them move faster and gives and decent sized unit that can do some damage.

No, that would be ridiculously overpowered, especially considering the Deffrolla FAQ.

20x Ork Slugga boyz = 120
PK/BP Nob = 40
Battlewagon with Deffrolla = 110

Total cost; 270 points.

x6 = 1620

Add Ghazghkull (1839 pts total), a KFF Mek (1908 pts total), and maybe some rokkit buggies or something depending on points level. That would be a stupid powerful army. The Boyz pile out and krump anything walking, the wagons Deffrolla anything on wheels.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Snikkyd wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Snikkyd wrote:Statistically speaking, 10 Orks will lose 3 Boys when they charge Tac Marines, and will kill 4 Marines in return. So Orks win that combat. And thats just 10 Orks, you'll probably have like 20 charging in.

Now compare the cost.

What? The Orks would lose like, 18 points worth, the Marines lost 64 points worth. lol.

You may even get them to run off the board.

This is why Orks don't need fixing.

/endthread

Point proven. Thank you both for establishing my next point for me

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Geemoney wrote:I think a simple fix would be to make bw dedicated transports for boyz, it lets them move faster and gives and decent sized unit that can do some damage.

No, that would be ridiculously overpowered, especially considering the Deffrolla FAQ.

20x Ork Slugga boyz = 120
PK/BP Nob = 40
Battlewagon with Deffrolla = 110

Total cost; 270 points.

x6 = 1620

Add Ghazghkull (1839 pts total), a KFF Mek (1908 pts total), and maybe some rokkit buggies or something depending on points level. That would be a stupid powerful army. The Boyz pile out and krump anything walking, the wagons Deffrolla anything on wheels.

This is entirely correct. Battle wagon dedicated transports would bring the derp meter to 12

Maybe I just don't see the same stats as you, because against assault marines I'm lucky if I don't lose 8 per round.

Well, the thing is that assault marines are expensive, so they are suppose to throw regular boyz left and right. that's why we have our own expensive assault unit to counter. We call them Nobs.

Assault marines should drop about 8 boyz on the charge.

30 shootas, the same in points should take out about 8 assault marines.
If its sluggas then you kill an additional 2 marines

So one armies assault troops will take out an even number of another armies basic troops, at the same points. HOLY gak orks must suck in hand to hand if their basic guys are on par with space marines specialist assault troops in hand to hand.

>.> They're BA basic troops.
And yes, I regularly play against a PDF BA-er before you start.

Snikkyd wrote:Statistically speaking, 10 Orks will lose 3 Boys when they charge Tac Marines, and will kill 4 Marines in return. So Orks win that combat. And thats just 10 Orks, you'll probably have like 20 charging in.

With seven slugga boys surviving the marine attacks you get 28 attacks (2 +1 for 2 CCWs +1 for charge). Half will hit for 14 hits, half will wound for 7 wounds, and then you get 2.33 failed saves. Which is alright for a 60 point unit charging 160 points of tactical marines, but not what you said.


Meanwhile, orks are alright. They don't need to be able to defeat every possible enemy assault unit to be considered worthwhile, it needs to be accepted that a troop option won't be a preferred match up against all possible opponents - especially not an opponent like Assault Marines, who are designed for killing horde opponents.


They certainly shouldn't get BW as dedicated transports, as I really don't think we need 9 BW armies as the new ultra armoured spam list.

sebster wrote:

Snikkyd wrote:Statistically speaking, 10 Orks will lose 3 Boys when they charge Tac Marines, and will kill 4 Marines in return. So Orks win that combat. And thats just 10 Orks, you'll probably have like 20 charging in.

With seven slugga boys surviving the marine attacks you get 28 attacks (2 +1 for 2 CCWs +1 for charge). Half will hit for 14 hits, half will wound for 7 wounds, and then you get 2.33 failed saves. Which is alright for a 60 point unit charging 160 points of tactical marines, but not what you said.


Meanwhile, orks are alright. They don't need to be able to defeat every possible enemy assault unit to be considered worthwhile, it needs to be accepted that a troop option won't be a preferred match up against all possible opponents - especially not an opponent like Assault Marines, who are designed for killing horde opponents.


They certainly shouldn't get BW as dedicated transports, as I really don't think we need 9 BW armies as the new ultra armoured spam list.

I should note I was assuming there was a PK nob in there, thats what killed the extra marines.

Snikkyd wrote:I should note I was assuming there was a PK nob in there, thats what killed the extra marines.

Ah, of couse. Fair enough then.