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For 6 points a boy is one of the best troops in the game. I would really say that boyz, veteran guardsmen, and grey hunters are the top 3 in the game.

Chaos Marines would be on that list if the rest of the codex didn't suck.

It always seems that one of the primary problems of the game is GW's inflation of the SM in fluff. in the actual game, The SM are what their stat's reflect, above average in everything. The idea that SM should be better than everyone else at everything else is best left to black library novels.

Orks are good as they are. I'd like to see them get a bump to init, but I don't expect it.

I thought the 3rd ed (?) Ork codex said that while an Ork has larger muscles than a man, his muscle density is much lower.

In that sense...size doesn't matter. *BA-DUM_CHING*

There's a reason orks are 6 points; they aren't very good. Their advantages (T4, 2 base attacks, WS4 [if that's really anything to brag about]) are really overshadowed by their shortcomings, namely BS, I, S, and Sv. The BS I can live with, because they are a "volume of fire" army and that's amusing. But the other stuff is a bit more critical. Last 'dex, the ork boy was a backbone of your force, feared and loathed. Orks were viable without S4 because they could double initiative (check size), mob up broken units into larger units, didn't suffer fearless wounds, and had choppas to "equalize" the strength issue by limiting armor saves. Further, they had skarboyz and cyborks (as well as nobz) that could be very tough, effective CC units. All this combined into making orks (horde or small units like trukk mobz) truly a powerful CC force. They aren't anymore.

Even horde orks will not beat other assault armies and small units (lone trukks) have virtually no chance, assuming their cardboard transports get them there. Orks have slipped towards the bottom of the assault pack and frankly that's where my advocacy of a statline redux comes from. If you run Nids, SW, Khorne, any of the good assault armies, do you fear orks at all? Of course not. That, to me, suggests a problem. They should at least be in the conversation and not just a force that murders non-assault armies.

Anyway, I love orks; will always play them. But I switched over to shoota boyz this gen because they are way better than sluggas, namely because they got better while sluggas got nerfed. The ork boy used to be a backbone of my force, now they are minimum selections so that I can use the stuff that actually works.

So Skarboy - Would you want a 0-1 skarboyz unit add?

I think it's like someone said earlier in the thread, it's orders of magnitude. An ork is a lot stronger than a human, but a space marine is a lot stronger than an ork. In an inquisitor style game, it would be more like:

- generic human - strength 33

- generic ork - strength 65

-generic space marine - strength 120 (including power armour)

-carnifex - strength 740 (olol)

One of the things you guys have to keep in mind about the stats, as well, is that they're an abstraction, it's all about potential lethality; you have to take in the whole picture to answer a lot of these questions.

A guardsmen has weapon skill 3, strength 3, 1 attack. Armed with a close combat weapon, he has a 17% chance to wound and kill another guardsmen, and a 14% chance to kill an Ork. A charging guardsmen has only a 22% chance of killing dat' Boy*.

An Ork (WS4, STR3, A2) has a 44% chance to kill a guardsmen, and a 28% chance to kill another Ork.

A charging Ork has an 89% chance or killing a guardsmen. How can you possibly disagree that Orks, for their strength and abilities are less than or equal to humans?

* You shouldn'a done that, he was jest a boy. MmmmHMMM.

I say it just a balancing act personally I wouldn't mind seeing them get a extra point in str but they probably need better intuitive.

Skarboy wrote: The BS I can live with, ...

the_ferrett wrote:So Skarboy - Would you want a 0-1 skarboyz unit add?

I'd love it! But it wouldn't entirely fix the problem either. Orks just need a slight overall tweak. They are OK as is now and I don't want them to be the douchebag, overpowered army du jour, but I wouldn't mind it if they got a few tweaks in order to hang with the other assault-focused armies.

Skarboy wrote: Orks just need a slight overall tweak. They are OK as is now and I don't want them to be the douchebag, overpowered army du jour, but I wouldn't mind it if they got a few tweaks in order to hang with the other assault-focused armies.

Hmm. . . one thought. What if the Mob Rule didn't give Orks Fearless when they had more than 10 members, but instead simply said, "Any unit with more than 10 members automatically passes any Morale checks they are called on to make"?

This way, Orks don't suffer a bajillion Fearless wounds when they lose close combat, which would make the ladz significantly more fearsome. Of course, it could well be overpowered.

Orks will probably see a new codex after a few years. ATM, some of those other armies out there need severe upgrades, and Orks for the moment are not that bad off.

It does mean from a fluff standpoint most ork armies will not exist as GW intended them to because the fluff ork armies will be overshadowed by superior 5th editionmech and shooting armies.

Marshal_Gus wrote:I thought the 3rd ed (?) Ork codex said that while an Ork has larger muscles than a man, his muscle density is much lower.

Are you sure you're not thinking of The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer?

Keep in mind that while boys are lacking in the assault power, Nobz aren't. You can still do very powerful assaults with stuff like them. Also, once GW updates the armies that need a new Codex, they should re do the orks. It may seem soon but I think hey jumped the gun on them, and the fluff doesn't match the game very well. I like the current codex, but there are just a few changes they could make to make them so much better, it just annoying how close they are to having them.

The biggest change would be to make them more like 3rd edition. No fearless, the mob up and choppa rules, str 4.

Even small squads of Boys could work, now its all "Hey lets have 180 guys and just swarm them!" Uh no, I don't like that as much. I want to uotnumber the enemy, but not by that much. I'd rather have Boys that can threaten anyone no matter what their save is, and is better at assaulting. Get better anti tank, and the Orks would automatically fix their biggest weaknesses.

Perhaps 6th edition will revamp the CC rules and make it a bit more viable. If they do, expect orks to be right on top of that list of armies needed a kombat overhaul.

I just want them to nerf mech. I love vehicles, but not as much with transports. I want to blow stuff up with my tanks, not have infantry ride around in them and never get out.

I'd expect Orks to be one of the first updates of 6th edition. Whenever that will be, no one can tell. I'd say 4-5 years.

When an armored transport barely costs more than two of your basic infantry models you're asking for a headache.

I think the WS 4 is important and shouldn't change. But I would love to have I3 or better on my boyz, I might actually take them for often.
Also as I side not I think Battlewagons should be a dedicated transport for boys as well as nobz. It makes no sense to have a transport with a 20 model capacity as a dedicated transport for a unit the at max can have 11 models(including the warboss). Especially when 12 boys is almost useless.

By extent then land raiders should be transport for marine tac squads.

TBH orks are still very much a top tier army.

*shakes head slowly* While I think trukks should be able to extend to a ute, I don't think Orks need more BWs.

They are top tier mainly because of Nobz and wound allocation, not because of boyz.

Geemoney wrote:They are top tier mainly because of Nobz and wound allocation, not because of boyz.

Exactly, just because Boys aren't as good as they should be, doesn't mean they hinder the entire army. My only issue is that this goes against the fluff, which encourages you to take a ton of boys, but really, the best Ork lists don't have max Boys.

Snikkyd wrote:Exactly, just because Boys aren't as good as they should be, doesn't mean they hinder the entire army. My only issue is that this goes against the fluff, which encourages you to take a ton of boys, but really, the best Ork lists don't have max Boys.

Isn't that kind of the problem being discussed here? That the best ork lists don't actually have many orks because, well, they are weak? The ork statline and rules are a tag-team against them right now. Orks don't work in small numbers because of leadership, armor, initiative, and strength. They don't work in large numbers because of fearless wounds, lack of speed/maneuver, and ease of avoidance by the mechanized enemies of 5th Ed. The only useful ork trooper, to me, is the shoota boy and even then, they need masses of fire so you have to run them in mobs or they don't do much or run away when sneezed at. And with multiple objective missions, that means you have to run tons of mobs to survive attrition and hold objectives. Their transports are fragile and when they blow, a third of them die, making them even weaker. Or you have to shell out for a heavy support Battlewagon and spend too much on a glorified transport.

So what you see is people running nobz, meganobz as troops. And this is somehow fluffy? Elite units in massed numbers? No, and in fact, it contributes to an epiphany I had the other day: I would take the troop choices from ANY OTHER CODEX over my own. My elites, fast attack, heavy, they're a decent mix. But my troops? I'd rather have Fire Warriors, Necrons, IG platoons, Tactical Marines, Raider squads, you name it, over the ork boy because they would actually contribute something to my army and fulfill a valuable role. Back in 3rd Ed, last codex, the ork boyz, because of the rules, actually had a purpose in fleshing out mobz and creating a huge tidal wave, but they nerfed everything useful about that mob and that's why they need a revamp. It may be the statline, or the rules, or both, but they need tweaking. That's the problem to me.

My humble suggestion for Orks (because I love them so);
1> Alteration to the Mob rules:
-- Orks in large numbers become more ferocious and fight with greater fervor in battle. To represent this, all Ork units with the "Mob Rule" gain +1 I in close combat while their unit strength is 10 or greater models. In addition, any Ork unit may choose to use it's current model strength instead of it's Leadership when taking Ld based tests. Any Ork unit 10 models or stronger automatically passes morale checks.

Solves the initiative problem for large units, but gives it the caveat to prevent others from crying cheese. Also solves the fearless wounds issue. Orks shouldn't be suffering extra wounds like a daemon or monstrous creature. I believe the No Retreat! rule was intended for the monsters and gribblies that sit in combat all day immune to all attacks and tear things apart. Orks stay in combat because that's wot Orks do best!

2> Alteration to WAAAGH! special rule:
-- Once per game, the Orks may issue a WAAAGH!, which gives every Ork unit with this special rule "Fleet" and when that Ork unit runs, it rolls 2d6 and selects the highest roll for how far it can move.

I'm tired of declaring this WAAGH! ability, then wiffing the run rolls... if the Orks are kicked up in such a fervor, they really shouldn't be having trouble running.

3> Looted Wagon revamp:
-- What more can I say? We need a good mid-range fire support vehicle... Looted Wagons are supposed to fill that slot, but are too weak armor-wise and too unreliable "Don't Press Dat" -wise.[/i]

4> Base Nobs, Boss, and Meks have 'Eavy Armor. no points increase, they should have the armor.
5> Warboss needs something. This is the Ork that has to fight all the other Orks off EVERY day... I'd recommend +1 I and A. S6 or T6 base seems just too good. Bosspole standard?



I think the standard Ork boy is very good, there's just a problem with staying power in close combat.
Suggestions:

1> Mob Up! rule returns:
-- Orks always flee to the nearest other Ork unit. Automatically regroup if they come within 2" of an Ork mob 10 models or stronger, the models are incorporated into the other Ork unit.
-- Ork models that purchase a dedicated transport may instead retreat to the nearest transport capacity. They will automatically regroup if above half strength. Cannot regroup below half strength unless they join another 10+ Ork unit.

2> Boyz mobs that purchase a trukk get an option to also upgrade their armor to 5+ for 1 pt. per model. This option is only for Trukkers because they have serious staying power issues due to lower unit strength. The upgrade is to represent the Boyz have spare teef to pay for betta armurs. (They are rich enough to pay for the trukk)

[Optional]
3> "Unnuva Go!" introduced
-- If an Ork unit with this special rule loses the initiative test for falling back (I+d6 vs. opponent), they may make an additional Ld test, using their unit strength as their Ld value (no negative modifiers, no bosspole help). If the unit passes, they remain locked in combat, but lose a single model as a casualty.

jw7007 wrote:Yeah, Orks should probably be stronger to reflect the fluff, but Marines should be stronger as well with the same logic. IIRC 3rd through 5th edition were simplifications of 2nd which was a simplification 1st edition. I seem to remember that Orks at one point in time had a Strength value that was halfway between IG and Marines.

No, going back to Rogue Trader there's always been a base 10 system, with orks and humans both on St3. For a while marines had St3 as well, but they weren't the superhuman acid-spitting dudes in the fluff that they are now.

To make up for this, Orks are given two attacks to repreent their ferocity. Which mean that they have the speed and power efficiency to hit twice in a set amount of time with the same amount of force that a Human can strike once with in the same amount of time. Since frequency (how often he hits), time, and power (strength) are all related, they are twice as strong as humans. More so when enraged and charging into battle.

This. Very much this. The thing is that you can't model every element of everything perfectly and end up with a useable end result. Looking at Strength in isolation is a classic example, because St is never used in isolation - it is always used in combination with WS and Attacks. An ork with WS 4 and 2 attacks is far more effective in melee than a human. People can stare at the stats and worry about an ork's strength not being as high as it should be but we all know what happens when the orks pile into a guardsman's front line and that's all that really matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skarboy wrote:Well, isn't it telling that a close combat army like the orks would have to go to such measures to protect themselves against other CC armies? Doesn't that suggest they are underperforming somehow?

Medium quality, medium cost CC units will go splat against high quality, high cost CC units. If that wasn't happening then there'd be a serious problem.

Big footslogging units of boyz should steamrolling poor quality cc opponents, and taking objectives, or drowning quality troops in a mass of shoota fire. Trukk boyz should be storming up the field and piling into carefully chosen enemy units.

Killing top tier enemy assault units should be left to shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroot Loops wrote:Saying that the worst BS army in the game has to rely on their shooting is somewhat... odd.

Like looking at St in isolation and ignoring WS and Attacks, looking at BS in isolation is mistaken. Lootas have BS 2 but put out 1-3 St shots at excellent range each turn, they're an excellent shooting unit. Shoota boyz put out 2 shots at 18" each turn, and they're cheap as.

Fixating on a single stat and not looking at how units actually play will result in missing the big picture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skarboy wrote:The ork boy used to be a backbone of my force, now they are minimum selections so that I can use the stuff that actually works.

Do you mean slugga boy there? Because I'd agree the slugga boy is a marginal choice, only useful if you anticipate Guard or other GEQ opponents. But boyz are still the backbone of a quality ork army, the value of 30 man boy units at moderate cost, being able to put out excellent mid-range fire and sit on an objective absorbing incoming fire is huge.

So basically, if I understand this right. Is that the ork army has certain weaknesses. And because people exploit these weaknesses ork players are losing games. Because of this the weaknesses should be abolished, so the orks can win simply by running at the opponent.

Compare an ork boy to a guardsmen or termagaunt, Clearly the boy has overall better stats.

S4 base, seriously?
you get 2 attacks, which is statistically better. Find me another 6 point model that can put out 4 S4 WS4 attacks on the charge.

The green tide is still a very good list. The problem is it scores very high on the HURR DURR meter. And leaves with no tactical options other then run across the table and punch his dudes in the head. If they are clever they can exploit this and win. Thats how wars are won, people exploiting each others weaknesses.

Sad your green tide isnt winning games? Play something that requires more skill but has a higher top end.

So you'd have nothing change between codecies? Or just nothing between ork ones?

WarOne wrote:Perhaps 6th edition will revamp the CC rules and make it a bit more viable. If they do, expect orks to be right on top of that list of armies needed a kombat overhaul.

5th Edition. Cover Saves.
Enough said.

*snorts* Some of us prefer not to spam KFF HQs