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So I noticed on another thread that someone apparently believed that if a Battlewagon rammed another vehicle, it got its Deff Rolla hits and then its regular ramming hit. Is this true?

Why wouldnt it? There isnt anything that disallows one over the other. The rules only say that when tank shocking a deffrolla deals d6 S10 hits and that ramming is a type of tank shock.

One reason, I suppose, would be that there's nothing permitting the Deff Rolla hits to be taken in addition to the regular ramming hit. Given that there's nothing either way, it's a bit of a quandary.

Yes there is. Deffrollas deal their hits on a tank shock. Ramming is a type of tank shock. These rules dont have any baring on each other. There isnt anything to say that you dont get the ramming hit and the deffrolla hit, but the rules do say that deffrollas give you d6 when you tanks shock, and ramming is a type of tanks shock that gives you a hit. So you get both.

So...The rules don't say that you don't get to combine them, and because they don't say you can't and they do say that the Deff Rolla gets 1D6 S10 hits during a Ram because a Ram is a type of Tank Shock, and you normally get a hit from Ramming, that you get both? Doesn't that strike you as logically invalid at all?

Yes it is true you are aload to crush a land raider with your tanks spiky rolling pin. They FAQed it and you are aloud to make normal raming attacks with the bonus attacks of the deff rolla I was just beat down by this yesterday.

Oh, I know the FAQ means that Deff Rollas can be used in ramming, but I'm curious about how because there doesn't seem to be anything indicating how the two mesh together. Do you get just the Deff Rolla, or both?

Nice argument.

/facepalm

I left my ork codex at my office but am thinking that the deffrolla does in fact take over for the actual ram just by the wording of the rule. The "ramming is a type of tank shock" statement people keep throwing out doesn't mean anything. If anything it just limits you to ONLY what the deffrolla does and you are no longer ramming with a vehicle but instead a the deffrolla.

Based on....?

Hmmm, I hadn't thought about it before but I guess I do see the point here.

The Deff Rolla rules say "Any Tank Shock made by a battlewagon with a Deff Rolla causes D6 Strength 10 hits on the victim unit."

No mention of "in addition to the normal effects" or anything.

and I can see how you could say "my tank has a special rule so that when it rams (since ram is an extension of tank shock) it causes D6 Strength 10 hits, instead of the normal ram".

But it just seems it lacks either qualifying phrase for functionality, my assumption was it was in addition, and given the ram rules talk about being resolved "immediately" I would imagine the order is:

Vehicles come into contact during a ram.
Each vehicle inflicts it's ram hit on the other.
-If the vehicle recieving the ram remains intact, the ram is halted, and D6 S10 hits are inflicted.
-If the vehicle was destroyed, the battlewagon proceeds with it's ram.

I think that it is important that the effects of the ram on the BW are resolved. Therefore, it seems most logical to me to also resolve the effects of the ram on the other vehicle.

Drunkspleen seems to have a good sequence of events in terms of resolution. I'm too tired to look at all the rules though. (which means I have no business posting in YMDC )

It's a permissive set.

You've been given permission to resolve the Ram.

You've been given permission to resolve the (2)D6.

Nothing negates either permission.

Oh, and for the traditional, unrelated real life anecdote, when I kick people, their legs burst into flames. If I kick you, you get a sore leg and a burnt leg.

Drunkspleen wrote:The Deff Rolla rules say "Any Tank Shock made by a battlewagon with a Deff Rolla causes D6 Strength 10 hits on the victim unit."

No mention of "in addition to the normal effects" or anything.

But also no mention of 'instead of the normal effects'...

Hence the quandry.


I would guess it's intended to be instead, but RAW would seem to lean towards it being in addition.

I agree with Insaniak.

insaniak wrote:

I would guess it's intended to be instead, but RAW would seem to lean towards it being in addition.

I find that intention a little hard to swallow.
If it replaces all the normal ram effects, then wouldn't it follow that it replaces the normal tank shock effects and tank shocked infantry wouldn't be forced to take morale tests and so on? When would they DOG and bring in the extra d6 attacks?
The wording between rams/shocks in the rolla rule is identical. If you want to pick away at the ram effects because the rule doesn't specifically say that the hits are in addition to the normal affects, then you'd have to do the same to the shock rules (which breaks down quickly).

I can't see not getting both the ram and rolla hits, from that perspective.

A lot of people do see it. Perhaps you are over-thinking it. GW rules don't stand up well to close analysis, they sometimes become more confusing and contradictory.

If you think about it in real life terms then the force applied would be the weight and speed of the vehicle in addition to the spinning blade at the front! The hits would accumulate the one big hit.

Gorkamorka wrote:If it replaces all the normal ram effects, then wouldn't it follow that it replaces the normal tank shock effects and tank shocked infantry wouldn't be forced to take morale tests and so on?

I didn't say that it replaced all of the normal ram effects. I said that I suspected the intention (of whoever wrote the FAQ) was for the D6 hits to replace the hit the vehicle would normally make from Ramming.

So instead of 1 hit at whatever the strength works out as for the Ram, you inflict D6 S10 hits from the Deffrolla.

I have no way of knowing if that was actually the intention of either writer (Phil Kelly, and whoever wrote the FAQ) so would be happy to play it either way.

Kilkrazy wrote:A lot of people do see it. Perhaps you are over-thinking it. GW rules don't stand up well to close analysis, they sometimes become more confusing and contradictory.

Well said!

And, front runner for Understatement of the Year, 2010 edition!

Kilkrazy wrote:A lot of people do see it. Perhaps you are over-thinking it. GW rules don't stand up well to close analysis, they sometimes become more confusing and contradictory.

Just because a somewhat reasonable argument for a differing point of view can be made does not mean that "a lot of people do see it [that way]."

Supposedly a lot of people can see the Deffrolla as a weapon, but in all of the polls the clear majority are in the 'no, it's not a weapon' camp.

I see no reason for literal RAW (Ram, and Deffrolla both resolved as normal) to be ignored.

sourclams:

When you say "literal RAW", where is it written that a Battlewagon gets the Ramming hit in addition to the Tank Shock hits from the Deff Rolla? Failing that, how can we infer that from the rules?

Here's another question though: When a RAM destroys a vehicle, you keep going through with your ram.

Meaning, if you blow someone up with the deffrolla, do you keep going? Say your ram fails, but the deffrolla hits blow them up. Seems that since the ram didn't do it, just this thing that happens WHEN you ram did.

Spellbound wrote:Here's another question though: When a RAM destroys a vehicle, you keep going through with your ram.

Meaning, if you blow someone up with the deffrolla, do you keep going? Say your ram fails, but the deffrolla hits blow them up. Seems that since the ram didn't do it, just this thing that happens WHEN you ram did.

Assuming you resolve both the ram and the Deff Rolla hits (which I will be doing for the sake of consistency across tank shocking and ramming with a Deff Rolla, both still apply the normal effect as well as the Deff Rolla hits) you have to resolve the ram first, because it says you do it immediately, whereas the Deff Rolla gives no timeframe such as that. Specifically it's the following two quotes:

"Each vehicle immediately suffers a hit against the armour facing where the other vehicle has impacted"

"Both players roll for armour penetration against their enemy vehicle and any result is immediately appleid. If the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer halts."

Obviously, you have to have some time frame limit on when the vehicle can count as removed by the act, for instance, I'm sure nobody would think you could then ram the target with a second vehicle, remove it, and both vehicles proceed with their ram. This combined with the fact that a unit gets to DoG before the Deff Rolla hits are applied (as suggested by the FAQ which says they still recieve the 2d6 hits even if they stop the tank shock) and the fact that in a normal tank shock, DoG is the last thing to be resolved, I would say that, you fully resolve a standard ram, then assuming the vehicle is still alive after having done so, you apply the hits to it from the Deff Rolla because it has been tank shocked (rammed).

Well think of it this way... if you don't resolve the ram attack in addition to the deff rolla hits then there is no chance of the BW taking any damage when it rams.

Nurglitch, based upon your posts on the subject I would think you are all for anything that could destroy the Battlewagon and the deff rolla.

Wouldn't the enemy still get their counter-ram?

Another thread discussing the sequence of Ram/Deffrolla here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/281514.page

Doc Rogers wrote:Well think of it this way... if you don't resolve the ram attack in addition to the deff rolla hits then there is no chance of the BW taking any damage when it rams.

Nurglitch, based upon your posts on the subject I would think you are all for anything that could destroy the Battlewagon and the deff rolla.

No, what he was saying was this:

BW drives up 12" and rams a LR. The Ork player rolls 1D6 for Deff Rolla hits and gets a 2. So, he gets his normal tank shock (4 + 3 + 1 + 1D6), plus 2 str 10 hits.

The LR gives the BW a 4 + 3 + 1 + 1D6 hit in return (since the ram damage happens immediately to both vehicles).

So, the Ork player rolls 1D6 and gets a 4 (for the ram damage). Now, to account for the Deff Rolla, the ork player rolls two more dice and gets a 1 and a 5. Hence, the Ork player has succeeded in getting a Str 12 hit (ram), a Str 11 hit (Deff Rolla) and a Str 15 hit (Deff Rolla).

The Marine player rolls a 5 (for his ram damage). The LR gives the BW back a Str 13 hit.

The Ork player gets a penetrating roll, whereas the marine player gets nothing.

Wouldn't those be 4 (distance, 12/3) +4 (armor 14) +1 (tank) +d6? So in your example, the Land Raider does indeed do a glancing hit on a die roll of a 5.

Anyawys, to the OP. IMO, it's resolved in this sequence. Ram, to include any Death or Glory by a Walker, then Deffrolla hits. Even if destroyed, the Deffrolla hits still go off. My reasoning comes from GWs Deffrolla Tank Shock FAQ:
Q. Does a unit that successfully stops a Deff
Rolla-equipped Battlewagon’s Tank Shock suffer
any hits?
A. Yes, it does. In fact, it suffers 2D6 S10 hits!

To me, this indicates that the Tank Shock process, to include Morale, DoG, etc, all occur before the DR hits. In fact, you don't even know how many DR hits to apply until after the Tank Shock sequence is resolved. Is it 1d6 or 2d6, don't know, target unit ahs to take a Morale test first and decide whether or not they will DoG, then you know how many DR hits to apply. Yet, it also clarifies that even if stopped (which includes destroyed results), the DR hits occur.

So Ram, resolve Ram, then apply DR hits. This also leads me to believe that the DR hits fall outside the Ram process, meaning that if the Ram result is not a Destroyed - Exploded, the Battle Wagon halts, regardless of the DR results, since only exploding the target vehicle with a Ram allows you to continue moving.

sourclams wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:A lot of people do see it. Perhaps you are over-thinking it. GW rules don't stand up well to close analysis, they sometimes become more confusing and contradictory.

Just because a somewhat reasonable argument for a differing point of view can be made does not mean that "a lot of people do see it [that way]."

Supposedly a lot of people can see the Deffrolla as a weapon, but in all of the polls the clear majority are in the 'no, it's not a weapon' camp.

I see no reason for literal RAW (Ram, and Deffrolla both resolved as normal) to be ignored.

We haven't had a poll on this specific topic. If we did, it would be reasonable to suppose that players who voted "not a weapon" would also vote "replaces normal ram attack" (or something -- I'm not clear how peoples' logic ties up about these things.)

That would mean about 2/3rds of players. It leaves about 1/3rd of players in the opposite camp, which is in my opinion 'a lot'. It certainly can't be classed as a sort of negligible fringe, anyway.

In fact I agree with you on this point. My assumption was that the Rolla attacks 'stack' with the normal Ram attack.

I'll take a firm stand behind doc roger's argument:

Doc Rogers wrote:Well think of it this way... if you don't resolve the ram attack in addition to the deff rolla hits then there is no chance of the BW taking any damage when it rams.
Nurglitch, based upon your posts on the subject I would think you are all for anything that could destroy the Battlewagon and the deff rolla.

Reading this post i feel a bit guilty having ignored the ramming hit when the defrolla did the job.
Honestly the ramming hit is useful in about 10% of the cases, meaning in 90% of the cases it means a return hit on my battlewagon which i'd rather avoid but am not allowed to by the BRB.