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I have seen many people express their dislike of hawks a heap of times on dakka with no explanations.

usually along the lines of 'cut the hawks from your list, they suck' or 'don't get hawks'

I use up to three squads of hawks in my army, and think they are great

-great models
-great light infantry killers (masses of fire esp. with sunrifle; large blast marker on re-entry)
-great 'surprise!' tank killers (intercept + haywire grenades puts the odds in the favour of large squads blowing up anything)

I get the feeling most 'haters' expect them to be assault marines because they are jump infantry.

thoughts? responses?

mal wrote:-great models

Yes.

Everything else: meh.

You can't assault vehicles after you intercept (DS rules).
The guns aren't all that great, actually.
They die VERY quickly for their points cost. It's not that the pooping hawks suck, it's just that everything else is better.

Nightwatch wrote:

mal wrote:-great models

Yes.

Everything else: meh.

You can't assault vehicles after you intercept (DS rules).
The guns aren't all that great, actually.
They die VERY quickly for their points cost. It's not that the pooping hawks suck, it's just that everything else is better.

huh? the intercept special rule has nothing to do with Deep striking? in assault they always hit vehicles on a 4+

keep them in the air, in cover, or away from troop killers... (just like every other aspect warrior...)

Oh
My apologies
I should have remembered the rules. It was the other one...flying thing...?
Oh well. I see your point, and I agree that they can be used effectively. Every time I have encountered them, they haven't done much. In theory, they could be quite useful. In practice, they die before they get where they're going.

Skyleap- yeah sounds better than it is (its more effective to keep them on the board IMHO); but always comes in handy when you'd rather not have them facing down a carnifex etc...

I have rarely seen them played well-

I have a theory that 'cool' looking models are more likely to seem dangerous to opponents than bland ones (and hence cop more heat).

For sure. Honour Guard anyone?
When playing my most frequent Eldar opponent, I always killed his hawks first, because things that jump up and down on the board are annoying and besides, they looked kind of cool. For this reason, he stopped taking them.

There actually a pretty nice unit and do pretty well. But since they are considered "competative" everyone turns there nose up at them.

Ya I love the models!!!

Inability to actually kill anything. s3 guns are pathetic. The template is nice but hardly amazing and haywire grenades are risky and require you to get into cc with a tank.

High cost for fragility.

Serve no purpose that can't be done by something else in the list but better (tank hunting? dragons. Mobile infantry killer? Take your pick you've got bikes, falcons, warwalkers, vypers and warp spiders all doing the job better. utility unit that can go after tanks or infantry? harlies, scorps or spiders all possess wargear or abilities that let them switch from their primary anti-infantry role into a decent tank killer. Tricksy last turn contesting antics? That's be nigh om everything else in the list).

That's why nobody likes them.

At least back when they had the uber exarch they could do something unique.

I remember the good old days when Baharroth averaged a tactical squad of marines on average...

Anyway, second to BravelyBravesirrobin's post.

The Yo-Yo hawk is fun/cool, but you'll only seriously see 3-4 uses of the pie plate and in most cases the enemy will be spaced out, so it's really just an annoyance than anything else...which makes the cost for them hard to swallow... on top of all the other things.

They are fast...there's no doubt there, but that only gets you so far when the rest of the eldar list can be fast AND X, Y, Z.

I love the models but hate the unit. I consider myself a competitive player and I have yet to be confronted with a situation where swooping hawks were an efficient use of points.

If I need to deal with light infantry, Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent are more resilient, cheaper, and more deadly.

If I need to deal with vehicles, Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent are FAR more effective and, unlike their Swooping Hawk friends, don’t have to stand around with their T3, 4+ save for one turn before they’re able to take a shot at the vehicle they’re after.

Until we get a new codex my poor poor hawks will be 3rd string players.

They are like magpies only eldar.

Shaman wrote:They are like magpies only eldar.

they shouldn't be a problem then if you paint all your figures with red hair...

I play with 3 ten man squads and their main power lies with the way the enemy underestimates them. The can kill tanks with intercept and haywire grenades. Plus they can deep strike and skyleap on the same turn. Also they have the sunrilfe. Its like playing orks but not!

Intercept + haywire is only good if it's a expensive tank as they hawks will die afterwards.

DS+Skyleap is nice to keep them off the board, but it's just really boring. The hawk pack is cool, but not spectacular and they can't shoot their normal guns if they skyleap...so more wasted points offensively.

Sunrifle/"playing orks but not"...what do you mean idget?

Hawks pretty much fail for being expensive, T3, 4+ armor save, no real assault ability, and strength 3 ranged weapons. They're a fragile unit that hits like a limp noodle. You basically can't get any worse than that unless they were also slow. A similar unit, warp spiders, has about the same cost, have guns that are twice as strong, have a 3+ armor save, are even more mobile, and their exarch is more combat-effective without sacrificing his ranged ability (IIRC.) About the only thing hawks are good at is killing land raiders, but only in assault which is after it becomes really important to kill it. I'd much rather use fire dragons for that.

They are what they are.

The unit is descent, but that's about it. The models are great.

Game wise though, I liken them to Possessed Chaos Space Marines. There's more attractive units for your points and they're somewhat mismatched with the army.

The Eldar tend to be the scalpel in that their units tend to excel in a particular role. Swooping Hawks though, don't. They do some neat stuff, but they're just not remotely focused toward anything. Intercept and the Haywire Grenades are pretty good against vehicles, but then you have their guns which can't even glance rear armour and the Grenade Pack, which is just sort of there. They're rather a jack of all trades in an army of specialists.

They are ok moble fire for anti troop, I use a Doomseer so it fits well into my army but dooming is part of how the eldar work....IMHO. So I have no problem with the unit it's about volume of fire/attacks. So one box set 6 models one an Exarch. 173 points with Exarch Sunrifle, both Exarch Powers. Moves 12" shoots 10 shots at BS4 and 6 shots at BS5 all at 24" makinging the overall range 36" front start of turn (12" move plus 24" range). If they target is with in 6" you can assault with 10 WS4 attacks and 3 at WS5. That's not too bad for 173 points. Yes..everything is at S3, but I'll use the HAMulator and see what numbers I get.

Shooting - 2.17 T4 Sv3+, 8.75 T3 Sv5+, 6.49 T4 Sv5+, 2.92 T3 Sv3+
Less than that in assault.

But Mathhammer is the problem. For me 40K is about having fun, not plaing in a Tournament. So many people talk about point for point whats the best.....screw that I want fun and fluff. But this is from a supporter of the Biovore under the old rules.

Love the models, but they end up getting pasted way to quick in 5th ed. As a result, the models I like to look at don't last long on the table.

What's their role? I don't think GW really knows what to do with them. Mediocre shooting, mediocre anti infantry blast, anti tank role.....very strange considering most other Aspect Warriors have a very defined role in gameplay.

I'd love to get to a point where I can use them to destroy a vehicle and, gasp, live the following turn.

What started as one of the toughest units in the game (1st edition) has ended up being less than mediocre. It's a real shame as I think it is one of the most characterful units in the game.