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Fair enough, they are very glass cannon and probably need to be at about 40. I don't think making them Warrior price is a great idea, but they might still need a slight reduction, a lot the flaws you mentioned are definitely valid, although I wouldn't call them unplayable. They do hit like a ton of bricks, I think playing them cautiously is important, deepstriking directly next to unit so you can get flesh hook shots is probably not a great idea in a lot of situations. They are definitely one of the easiest ways to waste points if you don't make the right calls. Plus, a lot of the time Warriors will be better value for points.

Assuming Lictors are as they, if you personally HAD to field them, how do you feel about the Assassins Brood formation?

I feel that it's a 250 point tax to get Deathleaper out of the HQ slot, diminishing the threat potential and target saturation of your army, and handing your opponent Purge the Alien on a silver platter.

What points value do you think Lictors would be balanced at, assuming no other changes?

I'd say Kill Team if Genestealers didn't exist.. Maybe Apocalypse just because at that points level you can afford to throw away some points on a relatively cheap annoying unit.

Actually, in an Apocalypse sized game I can really see the use of the Assassin Brood to help guide in lots of deepstriking FMCs.

I don't believe they are permitted for kill team based on the no multi-wounds allowed rule, I think thats a standard rule now anyway?. Regardles, we have very little for kill team. :(

But my question was actually, how many points does each individual lictor need to be to be worth the purchase? How overcosted do you think they are?

If I remember correctly only models with over 3 wounds are disallowed in the new Kill Team rules.

Ah, ok. I'd say 30 points would make them a decent choice and worth considering over other Elites.

For playing lictors well...and I would argue the whole tyranid codex...terrain placement is vital.

Being picky about your terrain placement and going one at a time is huge.

With tyranids...and most armies...you're trying to get some ruins on your side while throwing forests in their backyard.

I care much more about terrain placement with my bugs than I ever do with my Grey Knights or Eldar.

I really wish my club had more line of sight blocking terrain available.

So anything you do specifically when using forest lictors? Where do you put the forest?

So while tyranids do not have access to transports, with the rules we currently have we do have access to some nifty fortification tricks:

Page 121 of the BRB states "...Friendly units that have the infiltrate or scouts special rule can (re)deploy within the building, regardless of the proximity to enemy units." This is regarding fortifications. It goes on to state that enemy units cannot infiltrate within your fortifications before the start of the game, which is nice to prevent someone with kroot or scouts stealing your tactic.

Jump to Stronghold Assault, with updated rules for buildings and fortifications, and see the "Repel the Attackers" special rule. (no rules quote here as my book is elsewhere, but it is the rule that allows models to assault after disembarking from buildings.)

So with the above 2 referenced topics, I think genestealers (and lictors if you wish) have a niche use. Take a bastion or imperial bunker (75 pts for 20 model capacity, 55 pts for 10....bastion is probably the better buy as it also comes with heavy bolters and blocks more LOS than the bunker). Place it right on the center line, fully within your table half (as per the rules) and infiltrate your genestealers or lictors into it. Now the enemy has to crack an AV14 building in 1 turn, or the unit will be assaulting anything that approaches near the center table.

75 pts for a razorback..pah! tyranids might have just found their new land raider.

This is a common tactic with the redoubt.

Late to the party, as usual. Thanks Duct.

I had never heard nor thought of it.... nor have I seen it mentioned in this thread so I don't think its all that common.... thanks heaps for the heads up Tetris! Might give this a go...

 SHUPPET wrote:
I had never heard nor thought of it.... nor have I seen it mentioned in this thread so I don't think its all that common.... thanks heaps for the heads up Tetris! Might give this a go...

Definitely consider it with the redoubt as it gives your list some skyfire and even makes it so 2 flyrants is not necessary.

Sitting and thinking about this tactic I would advise to be wary of opponents who tote meltaguns, lances, etc on a regular basis. In those cases it might be better to place the fortification in a more defensive position.

Or alternatively purchase barricades for 10 pts per 6" section, and put them right in front of your building to give it a 4+ cover save. Sure, you'll inhibit LOS from the fire points on the building (if it's a Firestorm Redoubt) but Genestealers don't shoot anyway so it's no loss.

Exact wording on infiltrates page states two rules involving deploying 12" away no LOS, and 18" away with LOS, and that "a unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in the first turn". Does this mean deploying into the bastion which is neither of the mentioned rules, does allow first turn assault?

No they cannot assault as they're still using the "infiltrate" rules.

Unless you go second...then you can assault.

Going second makes no difference, p 9 says if rules state turn it means player turn not game turn

So you have to leave the genestealers inside for a turn anyway? I don't think that is worth the 75 pts if so... But being that you were mistaken about half of the rulings you stated I think I'll wait for another opinion to verify the other half first

 SHUPPET wrote:
Going second makes no difference, p 9 says if rules state turn it means player turn not game turn

So you have to leave the genestealers inside for a turn anyway? I don't think that is worth the 75 pts if so... But being that you were mistaken about half of the rulings you stated I think I'll wait for another opinion to verify the other half first

The rule states no unit that used Infiltrate or Scout may assault on the first turn. Stop. In the first section of the rulebook, it states that the term "turn" means player turn, unless specifically referenced as "Game turn". Stop.

Therefore, If you go first you may not assault if you infiltrate - however on turn 1 if you go Second you can infiltrate then assault. In both scenarios, the defending player has 1 shooting phase to move out of the way/defend himself from your units.

Edit to add: The section on deploying within Fortifications (page 121) overrides the 12"/18" distance rule for normal infiltrators.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Going second makes no difference, p 9 says if rules state turn it means player turn not game turn

So you have to leave the genestealers inside for a turn anyway? I don't think that is worth the 75 pts if so... But being that you were mistaken about half of the rulings you stated I think I'll wait for another opinion to verify the other half first

The rule states no unit that used Infiltrate or Scout may assault on the first turn. Stop. In the first section of the rulebook, it states that the term "turn" means player turn, unless specifically referenced as "Game turn". Stop.

Therefore, If you go first you may not assault if you infiltrate - however on turn 1 if you go Second you can infiltrate then assault. In both scenarios, the defending player has 1 shooting phase to move out of the way/defend himself from your units.

Edit to add: The section on deploying within Fortifications (page 121) overrides the 12"/18" distance rule for normal infiltrators.

Thanks for the concise overview tetris!

Dude...that is still your player turn 1, even if you went second. You still cannot assault either way.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Dude...that is still your player turn 1, even if you went second. You still cannot assault either way.

Wrong. It's player turn 2, game turn 1.

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: The rulebook states " unit that m akes a Scout redeploym ent
A
cannot charge in the first turn." Does this m ean that if your
opponent has the first turn and you go second, your Scouting
unit can charge? (p41)
A: Yes.

Scout and Infiltrate have identical prohibitions.

It's the first player turn. Not during your first player turn.

Gotcha, my misunderstanding of player turns. Sorry for spamming a rules debate.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
If I remember correctly only models with over 3 wounds are disallowed in the new Kill Team rules.

Ah, ok. I'd say 30 points would make them a decent choice and worth considering over other Elites.

30-35 points would definitely make Lictors much more attractive. Of course 20 points would make Warriors more attractive, 8 points would make Genesteelers more attractive. 220 would make Swarmlord more attractive.

Maybe 7th edition's changes to assault will make Lictors more appealing.

So does anyone think this a worthy 75 pt upgrade for stealers? If you leave them inside turn 1 then by turn 2 they will be no closer than if you had just infiltrated them normally... You have 5 more gene stealers as well with the points saved... However 20 gene stealers with an AV14 wall is obviously more survivable than 25 running up the field, in most cases... Turn 1 assault vs most no-melta-or-lance armies is nice too, although it most likely just tells your opponent to stay back a bit, which is fine for them considering our lack of decent ranged weaponry... Thoughts?

Aside from its application as a genestealer hive, the bastion will provide critical LOS blocking which in many cases will aid your army as a whole.

Nobody loves bastions more than bugs.

Well, maybe Oblits.

tag8833 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
If I remember correctly only models with over 3 wounds are disallowed in the new Kill Team rules.

Ah, ok. I'd say 30 points would make them a decent choice and worth considering over other Elites.

30-35 points would definitely make Lictors much more attractive. Of course 20 points would make Warriors more attractive, 8 points would make Genesteelers more attractive. 220 would make Swarmlord more attractive.

Honestly, I'd probably take Lictors if they had some of the formation rules by default, without having to take 300-400pts worth of them first. Paranoia and Ill Discipline (-1 to Ld for enemies within 12") is a potentially fantastic combo alongside some of our Pinning / psychic options, and getting Shrouded instead of Stealth in any area terrain (rather than just forests) would be pretty good too.

Most of all though, I think they need to be characters with some special challenge-related bonuses (perhaps a Tyranid version of Disarm). It would be awesome if they could be used to pick off sergeants/psykers in units, then Hit & Run out of there.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
No, I'm definitely saying Lictors are terrible. In my opinion Lictors need at least 2 or 3 of the following in order to be worth fielding at a competitive level:
- Increased durability
- Lower points cost
- Ability to make non-declinable challenges
- Ability to assault from reserves
- Pheromone trail working the turn they arrive from reserves
- Better close combat stats

I gotta agree in principle... Maybe just give Lictors Shrouded as part of Camo-skin, or buff up to "only snap shots" like Deathleaper
Adding in a "Bio-assassin" rule that lets them make challenges (but not receive them) makes good sense from the fluff...I really agree on the trail working at all times is a workable, and needed change.

GW seems totally oposed to assault from...well Anything So thats likely out....and the stats? I think their fine