Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2017/07/18 03:44:20
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
Latro_ wrote: jumping in on the thread, watched a couple of battle reports and warrior spam just looks hilarious with the reanimation rolls.
I have a bunch (like 60-80) in a box somewhere is it worth painting them for a somewhat decent force?
thinking 80, like 960pts
then 1000pts on fun stuff to deliver them like night sythes, monolths, ghost arcs and crypteks in there.
just seems a bit bonkers and a tough nut to crack, or am i missing something.
It can be fun. Deciever 40 up front t1 for lots of gauss death. They need lords just as much as they need GA and crypteks. I'd bring one of each per 40, they need to be properly supported to work well.
Guard are strong against them, 50 conscripts in rapidfire range does way more damage to the warriors than 20-40 warriors can dish back.
12,000
2017/07/18 04:50:02
Subject: Re: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
Only 6 necron armies on ETC this year. As axpected necron are low tier army in 8th edition competetive scene. One positive thing is, that list are quite varied. Top teams ignore necrons completely.
Austria
Spoiler:
+ TEAM: AUSTRIA
+ PLAYER 6: Christian 'Scrade' Stromberger
+ PLAYER TOURNEYKEEPER PROFILE: Christian Stromberger
I don't wanna exactly throw stones from my glass house of not even having actually played a game of 8th outside my house yet but those are some truly awful lists that i don't think come close to being representative of the competitive scene?
Like the first list takes a million ccbs but they can't actually use command wave on anything? There are multiple instances of multiple doom scythes, one of our only universal 'do not take' units. The last 2 lists at least look like they read the index but can only do like 2 wounds to flyers a turn if they run into a stormraven spam list. Only the ireland list seems marginally viable and it's pretty far from optimized.
2017/07/18 05:26:36
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
CCB, wraith, Doom Scythes, Anni barge spam? I'm just not seeing it. How do they deal with double knight Magnus lists? Or stormraven, or any list with more than one big monster. Anni barge spam is good against hordes, but which horde is at the top tables?
12,000
2017/07/18 05:33:20
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
Actinium wrote: I don't wanna exactly throw stones from my glass house of not even having actually played a game of 8th outside my house yet but those are some truly awful lists that i don't think come close to being representative of the competitive scene? Like the first list takes a million ccbs but they can't actually use command wave on anything? There are multiple instances of multiple doom scythes, one of our only universal 'do not take' units. The last 2 lists at least look like they read the index but can only do like 2 wounds to flyers a turn if they run into a stormraven spam list. Only the ireland list seems marginally viable and it's pretty far from optimized.
Klowny wrote: CCB, wraith, Doom Scythes, Anni barge spam? I'm just not seeing it. How do they deal with double knight Magnus lists? Or stormraven, or any list with more than one big monster. Anni barge spam is good against hordes, but which horde is at the top tables?
ETC is team tournament with regular pairing. This lists are not viable on solo tournaments. And how you can see this list are mostly pure defenders (except the north ireland list ofc.) In normal circumstances they will never meet magnus or flyers :-D
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/18 05:37:09
2017/07/18 05:39:44
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
Actinium wrote: I don't wanna exactly throw stones from my glass house of not even having actually played a game of 8th outside my house yet but those are some truly awful lists that i don't think come close to being representative of the competitive scene?
Like the first list takes a million ccbs but they can't actually use command wave on anything? There are multiple instances of multiple doom scythes, one of our only universal 'do not take' units. The last 2 lists at least look like they read the index but can only do like 2 wounds to flyers a turn if they run into a stormraven spam list. Only the ireland list seems marginally viable and it's pretty far from optimized.
Klowny wrote: CCB, wraith, Doom Scythes, Anni barge spam? I'm just not seeing it. How do they deal with double knight Magnus lists? Or stormraven, or any list with more than one big monster. Anni barge spam is good against hordes, but which horde is at the top tables?
ETC is team tournament with regular pairing. This lists are not viable on solo tournaments. And how you can see this list are mostly pure defenders (except the north ireland list) ofc.) In normal circumstances they will never meet magnus or flyers :-D
Must say I don't know the details of the tournament so maybe was quick to jump the gun.
But saying we aren't competitive given the tools we have at our disposal isn't a correct assumption either. Magnus and knights, stormraven guilliman, conscript blob, razorwing etc are all strong lists, and most of the heavy hitters I've seen have big guns screened by chaff.
Spamming doom scythes I cannot understand at all. A lot of people will have good AA defence (to fight stormraven spam) and our flyers are terrible at what they do anyway. They're not defensive, neither are they terribly offensive. Anni barges are good against hordes but tesla Immortals get the job done better, however they are slow.
Scarab spam is good.... when it has other stuff to actually do the heavy lifting.
Only one list has decent heavy hitters, the rest are just fast units, good for board control and to quasi tar pit, but not much else.
I didn't mean to sound condescending or insulting at all, just a bit perplexed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/18 05:42:50
12,000
2017/07/18 05:58:21
Subject: Re: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
Maybe they figure 8x5 times S7 exploding dice will hurt knights/vehicles as well as hordes. Those lists are fast enough to focus one down at a time and occupy the rest with 1 or 2 scarab swarms.
I don't get the doomscythes either. When your main gun is 4+ to hit, do they just rely on more tesla destructors and hope for some decent shots with the other one?
With the ccb spam list, I think k the idea is that they all buff each other, and go on a killing spree together.
- Power corrupts, Absolute power.... is a whole lot of fun...-
2017/07/18 06:01:27
Subject: Re: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
The A Barge spam list looks pretty optimal for getting paired up against a horde army.
Not sure what Doom Scythe spam is meant to go up against.
But yeah, if you are going to spam Necron stuff, make sure its DDAs, TAs, Sentry Pylons, Scarabs, or Immortals.
Agree. I feel the more common vehicle and scarab spam is, the more valuable spyders are. Regen both vehicles and scarab swarms each turn for relatively cost free?? Can take multiple in a single unit reducing drop numbers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nagerash wrote: Maybe they figure 8x5 times S7 exploding dice will hurt knights/vehicles as well as hordes. Those lists are fast enough to focus one down at a time and occupy the rest with 1 or 2 scarab swarms.
I don't get the doomscythes either. When your main gun is 4+ to hit, do they just rely on more tesla destructors and hope for some decent shots with the other one?
With the ccb spam list, I think k the idea is that they all buff each other, and go on a killing spree together.
4 warscythes a killing spree does not make. Even with wraith screens.
Yeah Anni barges put out lots of dakka, buuuut they're fragile. TA put out way more dakka, threaten more targets, while being much more durable and degrade less. Same goes for DDA.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/18 06:05:37
12,000
2017/07/18 06:31:41
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
CCBarges are vehicles, not infantry, so they can't even target each other. Also even assuming they couldn't use forgeworld stuff abarges are still like 4pts per wound less efficient defensively than ddarks and a mountain worse than silver tide. Maybe because the boards were really big they felt they needed the 12" move and assault weapon? I don't know. It's too weird a format to draw any meaningful conclusions from if these are the best lists for it.
2017/07/18 06:50:09
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
Yeah. DDA are literally better in in every way than DS. Cheaper, tougher, hit better, outrange them. DDA can even camp backfield objectives, put out more dakka at close range. Cannot for the life of me understand that list.
12,000
2017/07/18 08:48:32
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
mrWermut wrote: A quick question. If it tournament legal to use a AOS model as a replacement for a 40k model as soon it's clearly defined to an opponent?
You'd have to check with the TO, but a lot are cool with it, especially if it's an obvious proxy/there isn't a model for it.
12,000
2017/07/18 16:45:13
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
I just saw a batrep on miniwargamings vault where an AM player completely tore apart a decent necron list played by a decent necron player. And for the (un)good of mankind I cannot see how to possibly counter it.
He had 5 artillery pieces in one corner, an HQ that gave them reroll 1s to hit. Pask. 4 units of guardsmen, 5 or 6 bulgryns. 4 single scount sentinels. And releant HQs to support it all, all in all one battallion and one brigade. infinity comand points.
Going first turn 1 (after seize) AM had no problems wiping an entire unit of 20 warriors first turn, and sucessively moved on to blow necrons off the table one unit at the time. Guardsmen and bulgryns bogged everything down midfield, and heavy artilery just shot dead anything that needed shooting, with comandpoints to prevent important rolls goind bad.
There were enough AM models on his half to prevent any meaningul deep strike, and bulgryns dealt with lychguard easily enough, and with the help of rapidfiring gadzillions of lasgns easily ate anything that walked up midfield.
I just don't see any counter to something like that.
2017/07/18 17:13:36
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
torblind wrote: 5 artillery pieces in one corner, an HQ that gave them reroll 1s to hit. Pask. 4 units of guardsmen, 5 or 6 bulgryns. 4 single scount sentinels. And releant HQs to support it all
[...]
I just don't see any counter to something like that.
... mass flyers?
2017/07/18 18:13:07
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
torblind wrote: I just saw a batrep on miniwargamings vault where an AM player completely tore apart a decent necron list played by a decent necron player. And for the (un)good of mankind I cannot see how to possibly counter it.
He had 5 artillery pieces in one corner, an HQ that gave them reroll 1s to hit. Pask. 4 units of guardsmen, 5 or 6 bulgryns. 4 single scount sentinels. And releant HQs to support it all, all in all one battallion and one brigade. infinity comand points.
Going first turn 1 (after seize) AM had no problems wiping an entire unit of 20 warriors first turn, and sucessively moved on to blow necrons off the table one unit at the time. Guardsmen and bulgryns bogged everything down midfield, and heavy artilery just shot dead anything that needed shooting, with comandpoints to prevent important rolls goind bad.
There were enough AM models on his half to prevent any meaningul deep strike, and bulgryns dealt with lychguard easily enough, and with the help of rapidfiring gadzillions of lasgns easily ate anything that walked up midfield.
I just don't see any counter to something like that.
Lychguard are an atrocious choice against guard.
I've played a few games now against lists like this.
Won them all.
Here's what you do. You need long range dakka to kill the tanks, and you need it durable. So you need DDA/TA, pylons etc. Destroyers are just pathetic compared to them in this instance.
You need fast units with lots of wounds to take care of conscripts/guard. Scarabs. They wreck face in CC against chaff, have a bucketload of attacks and wounds.
DONT EXPECT TO COME EVEN CLOSE TO TABLING HIM (this isn't 7th anymore ), and expect all but your vehicles to be dead by the end of the game. Warriors die to 200 lasgun shots a turn, even in bricks in cover with a cryptek. You can alpha strike 40 warriors and the Deciever into the frontline as 70% of the time your going first.you need a brutal alpha strike, you need fast units to win by objectives. We have both of these. Play with this in mind and neuter his biggest threats T1.
2 DDA and a stalker are crippling 2-3 tanks a turn, and then they're free to hammer whatever needs it. 40 warriors will put a big dent into lots of things, focus autocannon HWT or anything with plasma. Let your scarabs grab objectives initially, when the their tanks are dead get your vehicles or anything else to soak overwatch (warriors are good here due to RP), and then let your little bugs get to shredding.
So to win against this list you need
Turn 1
DDA's
Stalkers
Pylons
Tesseract Arks
Lots of scarabs
40 warriors and Deciever. (Optional, but Gi them into cover and they're a tough frontline so long as the alpha strike shreds enough dakka t1)
Play to objectives and win against his painfully slow guard, kill the tanks first and then any fast units.
Guard are top tier this edition, but even eldar could be beaten in 7th
12,000
2017/07/18 18:34:22
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
So long as you get the alpha strike your fine, play to objectives.
Yea we are safe against tanks, the only things we have to worry about are DS scion plasma spam (fixable by scarab spam) and HWT with autocannons or plasma, as they do 2 damage, so it pretty much negates the QS.
12,000
2017/07/18 21:58:07
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
How does the Deceiver's Grand Illusion interact with other "before the first battle round begins" type rules?
I played a game today against a a Guard player with Scout Sentinels (they also have a similar redeploy 9" rule) and it did not seem clear to us which player redeploys first.
We ended up deciding that the player with the first turn should redeploy before the other, but I'm not completely sure thats correct.
Does anyone have a idea on the correct order?
2017/07/19 04:09:35
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
torblind wrote: Some scarabs will then hold back and block scions from deep striking? And when done, move up to feed?
Yep I ran 13 in my game the other day and that's was all of my deployment zone on vanguard.
I'm planning on running 36 in the future...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
unbaraki wrote: How does the Deceiver's Grand Illusion interact with other "before the first battle round begins" type rules?
I played a game today against a a Guard player with Scout Sentinels (they also have a similar redeploy 9" rule) and it did not seem clear to us which player redeploys first.
We ended up deciding that the player with the first turn should redeploy before the other, but I'm not completely sure thats correct.
Does anyone have a idea on the correct order?
You roll off, and whoever wins decides the sequencing for things that happen before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 05:08:04
12,000
2017/07/19 06:19:24
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
unbaraki wrote: How does the Deceiver's Grand Illusion interact with other "before the first battle round begins" type rules?
I played a game today against a a Guard player with Scout Sentinels (they also have a similar redeploy 9" rule) and it did not seem clear to us which player redeploys first.
We ended up deciding that the player with the first turn should redeploy before the other, but I'm not completely sure thats correct.
Does anyone have a idea on the correct order?
You roll off, and whoever wins decides the sequencing for things that happen before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round.
Thanks for the response!
Can you reference a source for the roll off? Or is this just the classic roll to decide when you disagree with the opponent rule?
2017/07/19 07:37:04
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
Fantastic! I cant believe we missed it before. Much appreciated Klowny.
Here's another Grand Illusion question.
Lets say we've used GI to place a Ghost Ark loaded with Nemesor Zahndrekh 12" away before the first round
On my turn, Zahndrekh can exit the transport and shuffle his 5" forward.
Can he attempt the 7" charge?
If Vargard Obyron is chilling with 10 LychGuard someplace, at the end of the movement phase he and his friends can move to Zakndrekh within a 6" bubble but at least 1" away from the enemy.
Can they attempt the 1" charge?
I mean, its an insane point sink to move those units, but it's technically all good RAW?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 17:38:31
2017/07/19 17:54:57
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
Lets say we've used GI to place a Ghost Ark loaded with Nemesor Zahndrekh 12" away before the first round
On my turn, Zahndrekh can exit the transport and shuffle his 5" forward.
Can he attempt the 7" charge?
If Vargard Obyron is chilling with 10 LychGuard someplace, at the end of the movement phase he and his friends can move to Zakndrekh within a 6" bubble but at least 1" away from the enemy.
Can they attempt the 1" charge?
I mean, its an insane point sink to move those units, but it's technically all good RAW?
What you are describing is one of the earlier variations of the "Deceiver Bomb".
It works, but it's just not very efficient. We've since leaned in favor of shooting based alpha strikes.
2017/07/19 19:46:45
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / New FAQ discussion p.81
Lets say we've used GI to place a Ghost Ark loaded with Nemesor Zahndrekh 12" away before the first round
On my turn, Zahndrekh can exit the transport and shuffle his 5" forward.
Can he attempt the 7" charge?
If Vargard Obyron is chilling with 10 LychGuard someplace, at the end of the movement phase he and his friends can move to Zakndrekh within a 6" bubble but at least 1" away from the enemy.
Can they attempt the 1" charge?
I mean, its an insane point sink to move those units, but it's technically all good RAW?
What you are describing is one of the earlier variations of the "Deceiver Bomb".
It works, but it's just not very efficient. We've since leaned in favor of shooting based alpha strikes.
Do you happen to know where in the thread the more modern deceiver bombs are? I was still looking at the old methods.
12,000 
), and expect all but your vehicles to be dead by the end of the game. Warriors die to 200 lasgun shots a turn, even in bricks in cover with a cryptek. You can alpha strike 40 warriors and the Deciever into the frontline as 70% of the time your going first.you need a brutal alpha strike, you need fast units to win by objectives. We have both of these. Play with this in mind and neuter his biggest threats T1.
