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 JimOnMars wrote:
The orks has a sad. Assaulting gunlines now got much harder, as the front bubblewrap units can fall back and leave the entire ork force open for annihilation. I guess the 8e honeymoon is now over.

The Orks also get to attack first if they charge, and we don't know if Orks get to pile into combat after the fights end--a way that in AoS some units can effectively keep people "locked in".

Thing is with random run, weapons ranges are already (and look to continue to be) sufficiently long on even modest weapons that when played on a 6x4 the table feels small.

If you introduce a fixed run at Mx2, Marines would be able to deploy 12" on, run 12" turn 1 and then be able to reach out and touch anything opposite them all he way to the back of the table and have a huge bubble of the opposing deployment zone under threat, simply with Bolters.

They can already almost do this at every attempt. Random run does at least mean it isn't every attempt.

Now, I'm well aware Tac Marines aren't the most threatening yaddah yaddah, but please, anyone considering responding to this post, reply to the spirit of my point, rather than taking issue with my example.

At least it's all at once now, people with lots of footslogging infantry units might want to pick up something appropriate to represent a "Ran" marker for ease of bookkeeping in the shooting phase!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
The orks has a sad. Assaulting gunlines now got much harder, as the front bubblewrap units can fall back and leave the entire ork force open for annihilation. I guess the 8e honeymoon is now over.

Isn't it only a turn after the charge though? If so, you should have a turn to wail on them for a bit, and then shoot them when they try to retreat.

Well you should of killed them faster im fine with assault lines not having assault protection anymore. and besides its possible you might be able to attempt to catch them if they try and run off. we dont have the full rules.

So i'm assuming you can only fall back in your turn not the enemies turn right...

Orks can't possibly get any worse, so there is that.

 Kirasu wrote:
Orks can't possibly get any worse, so there is that.

GW: "Hold my beer!"

 Latro_ wrote:
So i'm assuming you can only fall back in your turn not the enemies turn right...

The article said start of your turn, forfeiting moving shooting and charging that turn.

While I agree with the sentiment that random Run is a let down ( I would have preferred Run to equal 1/2 normal movement) Getting rid of ALL randomness in the game would suck. I liked the introduction of random charge ranges because in 5th everyone would just move outside of the 12" Move/Charge gap and keep firing at your pathetic melee units. Random charge range allowed melee units a chance to "catch" these jerks, but of course, that should never be allowed to happen in 40K so they threw in Overwatch to keep melee handicapped... :(

 JimOnMars wrote:
The orks has a sad. Assaulting gunlines now got much harder, as the front bubblewrap units can fall back and leave the entire ork force open for annihilation. I guess the 8e honeymoon is now over.

Please relax, please. They didn't say assault after advance was out, also we haven't had any indication of overwatch and casualties may be removable from the rear again, don't know yet but AoS lets you remove who you want. If you have a unit that moves 12" like storm boyz, with a run roll and an assault move that average another 11" total (3d6 average) you can now assault 23" on average with something like storm boyz and all your weapons strike first. Yea, it's clearly time to shed tears s/

Chill mate, if even half what I listed is true they HAD to give shooty armies a way to disengage or you would simply be shifting the edition back to dominant assault. Besides, in AoS you must clear the engagement range with every models move, so if a horde of boys hits their line and they can't get away they are stuck. Just wait I promise it will be OK

Thing is with random run, weapons ranges are already (and look to continue to be) sufficiently long on even modest weapons that when played on a 6x4 the table feels small.

If you introduce a fixed run at Mx2, Marines would be able to deploy 12" on, run 12" turn 1 and then be able to reach out and touch anything opposite them all he way to the back of the table and have a huge bubble of the opposing deployment zone under threat, simply with Bolters.

They can already almost do this at every attempt. Random run does at least mean it isn't every attempt.

Now, I'm well aware Tac Marines aren't the most threatening yaddah yaddah, but please, anyone considering responding to this post, reply to the spirit of my point, rather than taking issue with my example.

At least it's all at once now, people with lots of footslogging infantry units might want to pick up something appropriate to represent a "Ran" marker for ease of bookkeeping in the shooting phase!

Its a valid point to be fair. My first thought when I saw SMs at M6 with the likes of say hormies or bikes at 8 or even 12 was that the standard 6x4 is definitely going to "feel smaller".
the last thing gunline or more fragile armies need is t1 charges or shenanigans like that.

Im quite interested in how they actually balance out the units with much higher M stats. Perhaps terrain will be -2 or -4 inches or halfing movement etc.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
The orks has a sad. Assaulting gunlines now got much harder, as the front bubblewrap units can fall back and leave the entire ork force open for annihilation. I guess the 8e honeymoon is now over.

Please relax, please. They didn't say assault after advance was out, also we haven't had any indication of overwatch and casualties may be removable from the rear again, don't know yet but AoS lets you remove who you want. If you have a unit that moves 12" like storm boyz, with a run roll and an assault move that average another 11" total (3d6 average) you can now assault 23" on average with something like storm boyz and all your weapons strike first. Yea, it's clearly time to shed tears s/

Chill mate, if even half what I listed is true they HAD to give shooty armies a way to disengage or you would simply be shifting the edition back to dominant assault. Besides, in AoS you must clear the engagement range with every models move, so if a horde of boys hits their line and they can't get away they are stuck. Just wait I promise it will be OK

Can't wait to see more jump troops getting used for hit-and-run tactics. Especially if Hit-And-Run turns out to be a good SR!

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 CoreCommander wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/27/new-warhammer-40000-movement/
Looks like AoS fall back is in... and no penalties other than those in AoS (no shooting and charging next turn) are mentioned. Not exactly the thing I was looking for though more details may surface...

Except for the S vs T roll and no random turn rolling the game is practically AoS for me judging by what have been released so far.

Wondering how this will affect units like my Ravenwing with Hit and Run... Not so special when everyone can do it...

Maybe they'll be able to still shoot and whatnot, or maybe do it in the assault phase like they do now.

We'll see

Instead of not being able to do anything after a fallback Ravenwing might be able to shoot. We'll just have to wait and see. I really enjoy the whole concept.

Also, Psychic Phase tomorrow!

Indeed - there are lots of units in AOS that can do this sort of thing.

Its a valid point to be fair. My first thought when I saw SMs at M6 with the likes of say hormies or bikes at 8 or even 12 was that the standard 6x4 is definitely going to "feel smaller".
the last thing gunline or more fragile armies need is t1 charges or shenanigans like that.

Im quite interested in how they actually balance out the units with much higher M stats. Perhaps terrain will be -2 or -4 inches or halfing movement etc.

Care to explain how units having the same movement = more movement? Everything moved 6 or 12 already and fleet increased charge distance for stupid units no one used like hormagaunts

 Kirasu wrote:

Its a valid point to be fair. My first thought when I saw SMs at M6 with the likes of say hormies or bikes at 8 or even 12 was that the standard 6x4 is definitely going to "feel smaller".
the last thing gunline or more fragile armies need is t1 charges or shenanigans like that.

Im quite interested in how they actually balance out the units with much higher M stats. Perhaps terrain will be -2 or -4 inches or halfing movement etc.

Care to explain how units having the same movement = more movement? Everything moved 6 or 12 already and fleet increased charge distance for stupid units no one used like hormagaunts

Things don't have the same movement from what's been said so far.

They said Hormagaunts are at the high end of Movement values, "faster than even Eldar".

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
The orks has a sad. Assaulting gunlines now got much harder, as the front bubblewrap units can fall back and leave the entire ork force open for annihilation. I guess the 8e honeymoon is now over.

The Orks also get to attack first if they charge, and we don't know if Orks get to pile into combat after the fights end--a way that in AoS some units can effectively keep people "locked in".

^This! STRIKING first with Orks on the charge is such a massive boone... I'm not worried that the unit may fall back. Presumably, that unit would effectively be "pinned" in their turn.

 Kirasu wrote:

Its a valid point to be fair. My first thought when I saw SMs at M6 with the likes of say hormies or bikes at 8 or even 12 was that the standard 6x4 is definitely going to "feel smaller".
the last thing gunline or more fragile armies need is t1 charges or shenanigans like that.

Im quite interested in how they actually balance out the units with much higher M stats. Perhaps terrain will be -2 or -4 inches or halfing movement etc.

Care to explain how units having the same movement = more movement? Everything moved 6 or 12 already and fleet increased charge distance for stupid units no one used like hormagaunts

Because there will be plenty of units that will be able to move more than the 6" that they were limited to in 7th edition. True this is borderline irrelevant to units that already had a 12" movement, but hormagaunts will like very much to have a movement of 8".

Care to explain how units having the same movement = more movement? Everything moved 6 or 12 already and fleet increased charge distance for stupid units no one used like hormagaunts

Hmm? SMs are 6, its likely Eldar will be 7 or even 8, hormies maybe even 9. Bikes/jetbikes even faster. How is that all the same?
Add a lucky run roll of 6 to that and hormies can move 15" a turn compared to 12 currently. Then throw in a charge move of X (if its like older editions this could well be double the M stat). So thats 9+6+18 for Hormies.
Thats a shrinking battlefield right there.

Granted this is all just still speculation.

Fleet didnt increase charge distacne, it simply, gave you a chance to reroll it. You could still roll a 1 for your run or the dreaded snakeyes for your charge.

Anyone have an idea on how "always hit first on charge" works with "alternating activations"?
Don't play aos so not sure if this is obvious.

 keltikhoa wrote:
Anyone have an idea on how "always hit first on charge" works with "alternating activations"?
Don't play aos so not sure if this is obvious.

They haven't fully explained this, but the general thought is that you'll always do chargers first and then go to alternating activations afterwards.

I doubt assaulting after an Advance move will be part of the core rules. That's something that's much more sensible to bolt on to specific armies and their strategems/special rules.

If, for example, an ork Warboss had an ability that let units within X" Advance and then Charge, then suddenly both players have strategic choices to make. Run him with your choppa boys to tie down the enemy line faster, or your slow meganobs? Overextend to snipe the lynchpin warboss, or try and thin out the tide?

Endless possibilities for army flavor.

 keltikhoa wrote:
Anyone have an idea on how "always hit first on charge" works with "alternating activations"?
Don't play aos so not sure if this is obvious.

You'd resolve units that charged first.

Let's say you're playing a game, it comes to the Combat Phase.
It is Player 1's turn, so he has what is effectively "priority".
Player 1 controls Units A, B, C, and D.
Player 2 controls Units X, Y, Z, and W.

Units A and D charged into a combat with Unit W.
Unit B is engaged in an ongoing combat with Unit X and Z.
Unit C got charged by unit Y.

Units A, D, and Y would then resolve their attacks first.
After the charges are resolved, Player 1 can activate Unit B or C. He activates Unit C, striking Unit Y.
Player 2 goes next, he can activate Units W, X, or Z. He activates Unit W, striking at both Units A and D(in AoS, you can split attacks among units that you're in combat with--you don't just have to strike one unit).
Player 1 now activates Unit B, piling his models in closer to Unit X before striking and devoting those attacks at Unit X so Unit Z no longer is in melee range(with AoS, there's a range on melee weapons).
Player 1 now has no more units to activate; Player 2 now resolves his remaining units that are in the combat.

 hordrak wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
The orks has a sad. Assaulting gunlines now got much harder, as the front bubblewrap units can fall back and leave the entire ork force open for annihilation. I guess the 8e honeymoon is now over.

I'd not be so pessimistic, orks might get some sweet stuff. At least lootas will get a nice rend in their deffguns.

Why do you assume that? I've been guessing the rend system is based on current ap ratings of weapons. AP5 & 6: no rend, AP4 rend 1, AP3 rend 2, AP2 rend 3, AP1 rend 4. Something like that.

If Tau suits maintain their speed and mobility it means more shooting if they survive the assault charge. So the Riptide can probably get away with wounds and fight at reduced capacity for another turn or two.

Interesting. Please let Kroot have a buff now and I can bust out even more of my beloveds. Mmmm Kroot and Breacher teams will make for some spicey goodness.

Edit
Depending on the balancing the meta could go either way. If follow up melee or shooting is enough to destroy those who escape from charging then tar pitting and charging will still be in the meta kinda just modified. However if the chargers get killed after their targets escape then I could see the end of the tarpit meta. It all depends on balancing. Or if balancing is perfect it could simply be another tactical tool at a players disposal that may or may not work depending on the units in question. My preference is for option 3. I don't want anything to become so good its a meta. Let's hope GW hits these rules out of the park. I like this a lot.

If Tau suits maintain their speed and mobility it means more shooting if they survive the assault charge. So the Riptide can probably get away with wounds and fight at reduced capacity for another turn or two.

It also means that they're pinned for at least one turn, and then you can go around and pin the next unit in your turn without worrying about those (now thinned out) suits shooting ya

 Azreal13 wrote:
Thing is with random run, weapons ranges are already (and look to continue to be) sufficiently long on even modest weapons that when played on a 6x4 the table feels small.

If you introduce a fixed run at Mx2, Marines would be able to deploy 12" on, run 12" turn 1 and then be able to reach out and touch anything opposite them all he way to the back of the table and have a huge bubble of the opposing deployment zone under threat, simply with Bolters.

They can already almost do this at every attempt. Random run does at least mean it isn't every attempt.

Now, I'm well aware Tac Marines aren't the most threatening yaddah yaddah, but please, anyone considering responding to this post, reply to the spirit of my point, rather than taking issue with my example.

At least it's all at once now, people with lots of footslogging infantry units might want to pick up something appropriate to represent a "Ran" marker for ease of bookkeeping in the shooting phase!

Only if "run" equaled "double." I would have proposed a flat +3 inches for running. Much simpler and more reliable.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
The orks has a sad. Assaulting gunlines now got much harder, as the front bubblewrap units can fall back and leave the entire ork force open for annihilation. I guess the 8e honeymoon is now over.

Please relax, please. They didn't say assault after advance was out, also we haven't had any indication of overwatch and casualties may be removable from the rear again, don't know yet but AoS lets you remove who you want. If you have a unit that moves 12" like storm boyz, with a run roll and an assault move that average another 11" total (3d6 average) you can now assault 23" on average with something like storm boyz and all your weapons strike first. Yea, it's clearly time to shed tears s/

Chill mate, if even half what I listed is true they HAD to give shooty armies a way to disengage or you would simply be shifting the edition back to dominant assault. Besides, in AoS you must clear the engagement range with every models move, so if a horde of boys hits their line and they can't get away they are stuck. Just wait I promise it will be OK

We dont know how close combat work yet, I doubt that we will be able to strike with a complete 30 strong mob if it is anything like AoS. I strongly doubt that we will get more than 2 attacks on the charge if attacker strikes first.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 keltikhoa wrote:
Anyone have an idea on how "always hit first on charge" works with "alternating activations"?
Don't play aos so not sure if this is obvious.

You'd resolve units that charged first.

Let's say you're playing a game, it comes to the Combat Phase.
It is Player 1's turn, so he has what is effectively "priority".
Player 1 controls Units A, B, C, and D.
Player 2 controls Units X, Y, Z, and W.

Units A and D charged into a combat with Unit W.
Unit B is engaged in an ongoing combat with Unit X and Z.
Unit C got charged by unit Y.

Units A, D, and Y would then resolve their attacks first.
After the charges are resolved, Player 1 can activate Unit B or C. He activates Unit C, striking Unit Y.
Player 2 goes next, he can activate Units W, X, or Z. He activates Unit W, striking at both Units A and D(in AoS, you can split attacks among units that you're in combat with--you don't just have to strike one unit).
Player 1 now activates Unit B, piling his models in closer to Unit X before striking and devoting those attacks at Unit X so Unit Z no longer is in melee range(with AoS, there's a range on melee weapons).
Player 1 now has no more units to activate; Player 2 now resolves his remaining units that are in the combat.

How on earth did player 2's unit Y charge in player 1's turn?

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 keltikhoa wrote:
Anyone have an idea on how "always hit first on charge" works with "alternating activations"?
Don't play aos so not sure if this is obvious.

You'd resolve units that charged first.

Let's say you're playing a game, it comes to the Combat Phase.
It is Player 1's turn, so he has what is effectively "priority".
Player 1 controls Units A, B, C, and D.
Player 2 controls Units X, Y, Z, and W.

Units A and D charged into a combat with Unit W.
Unit B is engaged in an ongoing combat with Unit X and Z.
Unit C got charged by unit Y.

Units A, D, and Y would then resolve their attacks first.
After the charges are resolved, Player 1 can activate Unit B or C. He activates Unit C, striking Unit Y.
Player 2 goes next, he can activate Units W, X, or Z. He activates Unit W, striking at both Units A and D(in AoS, you can split attacks among units that you're in combat with--you don't just have to strike one unit).
Player 1 now activates Unit B, piling his models in closer to Unit X before striking and devoting those attacks at Unit X so Unit Z no longer is in melee range(with AoS, there's a range on melee weapons).
Player 1 now has no more units to activate; Player 2 now resolves his remaining units that are in the combat.

How on earth did player 2's unit Y charge in player 1's turn?

Maybe a special rule, who knows.

I threw it in there more as an example of how it 'overrides' the priority of whose turn it is to go first.

 davou wrote:

If Tau suits maintain their speed and mobility it means more shooting if they survive the assault charge. So the Riptide can probably get away with wounds and fight at reduced capacity for another turn or two.

It also means that they're pinned for at least one turn, and then you can go around and pin the next unit in your turn without worrying about those (now thinned out) suits shooting ya

Yeah true for normal suits, but the Riptide will most definitely want to be on the frontline. If anything in your army wants to get charged it's something that can take it to escape again. SInce it will be fighting at a reduced capacity but still alive where as a smaller lesser suit team will likely get destroyed or weakened. It all depends on the numbers. Unless the Tau get something else better for frontline fodder than kroot or RIptides I expect that is all we'll have. Escaping from melee though will leave you open to other shooters. Interesting. I wonder what the meta will be. If one option is clearly better follow up melee charges or shooting those who had assaulted it will likely push the meta into melee or ranged dominance. I hope it's balanced enough that retreating isn't pointless all the time since follow up charges would annihilate everyone anyways. However I want it to still work as an option too just not an infallible one.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Thing is with random run, weapons ranges are already (and look to continue to be) sufficiently long on even modest weapons that when played on a 6x4 the table feels small.

If you introduce a fixed run at Mx2, Marines would be able to deploy 12" on, run 12" turn 1 and then be able to reach out and touch anything opposite them all he way to the back of the table and have a huge bubble of the opposing deployment zone under threat, simply with Bolters.

They can already almost do this at every attempt. Random run does at least mean it isn't every attempt.

Now, I'm well aware Tac Marines aren't the most threatening yaddah yaddah, but please, anyone considering responding to this post, reply to the spirit of my point, rather than taking issue with my example.

At least it's all at once now, people with lots of footslogging infantry units might want to pick up something appropriate to represent a "Ran" marker for ease of bookkeeping in the shooting phase!

Only if "run" equaled "double." I would have proposed a flat +3 inches for running. Much simpler and more reliable.

The best system I've played (and I think Infinity is similar? Or might be another game I've had superficial contact with) is Guild Ball, where each unit's Move is two numbers, a jog and a sprint. Eliminates random and dice rolls, and allows for some extra granularity. Big thing that's slow off the mark but goes like a train once moving? Lower jog, higher sprint. Small light thing that gets up to full speed quick? High jog but sprint not much higher. Greased weasel? High both, etc..