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Just seeing if I'm thinking correctly...


So, when a BW equipped with a Deff Rolla rams...


The ram damage is first resolved, THEN the victim vehicle takes 1d6/2d6 S10 hits on top of?

Tsannik wrote:Just seeing if I'm thinking correctly...


So, when a BW equipped with a Deff Rolla rams...


The ram damage is first resolved, THEN the victim vehicle takes 1d6/2d6 S10 hits on top of?

Yes. No. Maybe.

Honestly, the rules are muddy in this situation, though I am inclined to say that yes, the ram happens first, and if the BW is still alive, then it does it's D6.

That's what I thought..... props to you gwar

Gwar! wrote:

Tsannik wrote:Just seeing if I'm thinking correctly...


So, when a BW equipped with a Deff Rolla rams...


The ram damage is first resolved, THEN the victim vehicle takes 1d6/2d6 S10 hits on top of?

Yes. No. Maybe.

Honestly, the rules are muddy in this situation, though I am inclined to say that yes, the ram happens first, and if the BW is still alive, then it does it's D6.

I would disagree with the "if the battlewagon is still alive part". The ork codex states that the bw with a rolla inflicts d6 hits, or 2d6 if the target elects to DoG. If anything, the rolla damage would be applied at the same time as the ram.

An argument could be made that the rolla hits would go first given it would contact the target before the vehicle hull, but probably best not to go there.

Waaaaghmaster wrote:An argument could be made that the rolla hits would go first given it would contact the target before the vehicle hull, but probably best not to go there.

The only thing we really know is that the rolla hits happen after a death of glory is declared (as it affects the number of hits). The FAQ answer on DoGs that stop the wagon clearly implies that the hits occur after the DoG is fully resolved.

Walkers, who are rammable and can DoG, tell us nothing about the relation to ramming as the ram hit occurs after the DoG is resolved.

So we have...

DoG
Rolla
Ram

or

DoG
Ram
Rolla

or

DoG
Ram+Rolla

all as possible options for how to resolve it, as the rule never clarifies.

I would still tend to interpret the events happening at the same time. The only bearing DoG has is to determine whether the target unit takes d6 or 2d6 hits.

2nd column, 2nd paragraph of page 69 states that "Each vehicle immediately suffers a hit against the armor facing where the other vehicle impacted.."

the last paragraph states "both players roll for armour penetration against their enemy vehicle and any result is immediately applied"

The damage from a ram is applied to both vehicles at the same time. There is nothing in the rules suggesting that the vehicle performing the ram only inflicts damage if it is not destroyed.

Really the only "ambiguous" part is whether the BW does the rolla and ram damage, or if the rolla damage is in place of the normal ram. However, since nothing specifically says that the rolla does d6 hits instead of normal damage, one has to assume that both apply.

Yeah, I'm in the Everything happens at once bag, as the only realy checks that need to be made are, Did X or Y thing in my way blow up> Yes> then keep moving>No>Stay where you were. All the other blowie uppie stuff.
The rolla and Ram rules compliment each other so yes, they both happen as neither forbid the other/specify replacement.

Let's call a spade a spade, this is what people who are anti-deffrolla want to hear:

*Resolve Ram
*If Ram fails to destroy target, *ALL FUTURE MOVEMENT IS STOPPED*
*Resolve Deffrolla
*If target is destroyed by Deffrolla, the models inside may disembark without fear of being run over, because movement was stopped by the failed RAM.

People want future movement to be stopped by the RAM not cracking the tank, which is likley... If you count the RAM and Rolla at the same time, the chance the vehicle will be blown to smitherinies is much higher and the meat inside risks more damage.

The only time I think the Deffrolla results are delayed is when something DoG, because a SUCCESSFUL DoG prevents the RAM but never prevents the rolla results. Other than that, I see nothing that says there is a clear progression of RAM then Deffroller which would support the stopping of forward movement.

And another deff rolla thread starts.

To answer the OP, I believe (due to the Tank Shock/DoG FAQ) that the TS/Ram occurs first and that the entire TS/Ram sequence has to be resolved before the Deffrolla hits are applied. ANd that the 2d6 occur no matter what the DoG result is. And didn't I already start this topic a couple of days ago...............

Most of the time, against non-Walker vehicles, it really won't matter, except for the point that nkelsch brings up. And simply put, per the Ram rules, only the ram hit exploding the vehicle will allow the vehicle to continue moving. Doesn't matter if you resolve them at the same time or not. The DR attacks are still separate from the Ram, merely allowed by the action of ramming. So the Ram attack still has to be the one that causes the Vehicle - Exploded result, since nothing in the Ram rules allow for other attacks to have any effect on the further movement of the ramming vehicle.
"Both players roll for armour penetration against their enemy vehicle and any result is immediately applied. If the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer halts. However, if the rammed vehicle is removed because it suffers a ‘destroyed – explodes!’ damage result, the rammer continues its move, until it reaches its maximum move distance or another enemy (which it will tank shock or ram again!)."

Edit: other thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/281514.page

So if some of you want to say that the Deffrolla is acting independently of the ramming attack would you say it is then not an "enhanced" ram as some of you said and is instead "functioning as a weapon"?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAH!

nkelsch wrote:Let's call a spade a spade, this is what people who are anti-deffrolla want to hear:

*Resolve Ram
*If Ram fails to destroy target, *ALL FUTURE MOVEMENT IS STOPPED*
*Resolve Deffrolla
*If target is destroyed by Deffrolla, the models inside may disembark without fear of being run over, because movement was stopped by the failed RAM.

People want future movement to be stopped by the RAM not cracking the tank, which is likley... If you count the RAM and Rolla at the same time, the chance the vehicle will be blown to smitherinies is much higher and the meat inside risks more damage.

The only time I think the Deffrolla results are delayed is when something DoG, because a SUCCESSFUL DoG prevents the RAM but never prevents the rolla results. Other than that, I see nothing that says there is a clear progression of RAM then Deffroller which would support the stopping of forward movement.

Let's call a spade a spade, this is what people who are pro-deffrolla want to hear:

*Resolve Ram and Deffrolla simultaneously
*if either destroys the vehicle, the Battlewagon proceeds onwards, potentially hitting units that were embarked on the target vehicle

People want the Deffrolla to be able to supplement the normal ram with Deffrolla hits for the purposes of continuing the ram... If you count the RAM and Rolla Separately, you are following the rules because the Ram rules tell you that the ram damage is resolved "immediately", while the Deffrolla does not call for "immediate" resolution, before saying that if the vehicle isn't destroyed the ramming vehicle halts.

Brother Ramses wrote:So if some of you want to say that the Deffrolla is acting independently of the ramming attack would you say it is then not an "enhanced" ram as some of you said and is instead "functioning as a weapon"?

Ummm, yes, I think I've been saying that all along...........

don_mondo wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:So if some of you want to say that the Deffrolla is acting independently of the ramming attack would you say it is then not an "enhanced" ram as some of you said and is instead "functioning as a weapon"?

Ummm, yes, I think I've been saying that all along...........

Cool then it can be destroyed since it is a vehicle upgrade functioning as a weapon.

IMO, yes. Others will say no.

A quick note, since the DeffRolla hits a triggered by the tankshock I think there might be a fairly solid RAW argument that the hits are actually resolved before. I'd present the argument if I had my codex on hand for the exact Rolla wording etc etc
And keep in mind DoG is resolved after the morale check for a tankshock is passed.

Also @drunken: With the immediately clause from memory it's referring to the order hit is resolved, so in the way of 'oh you hit me so you're stopped already no continuing' it's their way of saying it happens without stopping the tank in the process.

Brother Ramses wrote:Cool then it can be destroyed since it is a vehicle upgrade functioning as a weapon.

We've had that discussion. No need to dredge it up again here.

ChrisCP wrote:A quick note, since the DeffRolla hits a triggered by the tankshock I think there might be a fairly solid RAW argument that the hits are actually resolved before. I'd present the argument if I had my codex on hand for the exact Rolla wording etc etc
And keep in mind DoG is resolved after the morale check for a tankshock is passed.

Except that the Tank Shock Deffrolla FAQ, this one:

Q. Does a unit that successfully stops a Deff
Rolla-equipped Battlewagon’s Tank Shock suffer
any hits?
A. Yes, it does. In fact, it suffers 2D6 S10 hits!

seems to state that the DR hits occur AFTER the Tank Shock, as they occur after the Death or Glory (which is part of the Tank Shock sequence). C'mon, you don't even know how many hits to apply (1d6 or 2d6) until after the Tank Shock sequence. You have to declare TS, he has to take a Morale test, he has to decide whether or not he will DoG, resolve the DoG, and then, finally, you get to apply the DR hits. How are you going to apply the DR hits before the tank shock when he has yet to take a Morale test and decide whther or not to DoG? Can't happen. You even point out that the DoG occurs after the Morale test. Which happens after the Tank Shock. So now how does the DR suddenly happen before the Tank Shock?

Because of the simple fact that DeffRolla rules state 'When' iirc, (not that I'm hinting that this would be really easy to solve if someone posted the Rolla quote) not after when, so it's either concurrently or before. In fact if we look at your referance again, it could be read as well duh it suffers 2d6st10 it's already done that as per-the order, 'grats on stopping it thou.

I do find you constant attempts of using FAQ's to justify your positions on teniously connected subjects amusing however.

Again on the Suffers, it's actually a fairly good example of past progressive (or continious) verb usage using it to show state/actions that were enduring reguardless of the DoG being sucessful (as this would remove the BW thus no place for the d6 hits to come from.)

OK, so, youre going to inflict the Defrrolla hits on my IG before theTank Shock. How many hits do you inflict? Am I going to pass or fail Morale and if pass, am I going to DoG? Same problem for simultaneous. How many hits? We don't know, because it's only after the Tank Shock sequence is completed, to include the opposing player deciding whether or not the unit will DoG, that we know how many hits ot inflict. That, if nothing else, almost mandats taht the DR hits occur aftewards.

Glad you find it amusing............. I live but to amuse.

Here is a situation i ran into. DR hits my chimera, wrecks it, continues through it, and immobilizes itself by rolling a 1 while continuing through the wreckage. Vets get out. 3 twin linked meltas into the side armor. Explodes.... 3 hydras and 3 basilisks later everything that was inside dead.

This sound like we did things right?

Hmmm, don't think so. Was the damage result on the Chimera a 6, ie Destroyed - Exploded? If not, the ramming vehicle stops. So if there was weckage, and not a crater, then the BW should have stopped.

technically the bw could go through the wreckage whether a crater or not. A wreckage is just dangerous terrain. Correct? the result was a 5 wreck

Yes, it can continue. On it's next turn. The Ramming rules take precedence here. They state that on a Destroyed - Exploded result the vehicle continues. Since it wasn't Exploded, the ramming vehicle stops. Page 69, main rulebook:
If the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer halts. However, if the rammed vehicle is removed because it suffers a ‘destroyed – explodes!’ damage result, the rammer continues its move

ok, cool thx for the clarification and pg number. Helps alot. The way we did it, didnt change the results of what happened so no harm no foul.

If he had blown the chimera up, then I am assuming he would have to roll his dangerous terrain test before hitting my squad that had just piled out the back.

Now that's a good question. I'd say yes, since he's entering difficult terrain, ie the crater.

So sending in the empty sacrificial chimera blockade will work wonders as usual. Odds are he aint getting through in any quick order.

don_mondo wrote:OK, so, youre going to inflict the Defrrolla hits on my IG before theTank Shock. How many hits do you inflict? Am I going to pass or fail Morale and if pass, am I going to DoG? Same problem for simultaneous. How many hits? We don't know, because it's only after the Tank Shock sequence is completed, to include the opposing player deciding whether or not the unit will DoG, that we know how many hits ot inflict. That, if nothing else, almost mandats taht the DR hits occur aftewards.

Glad you find it amusing............. I live but to amuse.

Yeah yeah, you know how we find out how many hits it is by rolling D6, funnily enough in a simulation we can roll dice at any time we can even be more powerful than a computer and do two things at once or even simultaneously! And you know that passing the moral test has no effect on the hits happening.

In fact that the wording on DR is fairly close to 'if that unit elects to DoG it suffers an additional d6st10 hits' additional as in 'in addition to' which quite accurately means the other hits have to have happened QED.

Now what the real problem is - There's no direct quote from the Ork Codex here, simply if it says 'when such and such is tank-shocked it receives' the key word being when not before not after or even once - 'When', which would mean they are resolved at the same time, which makes sense - giant-roller-thingy, but you don't seem to be a huge fan of sense
(well maybe of non-sense)

ChrisCP wrote:

Yeah yeah, you know how we find out how many hits it is by rolling D6,

Ummm, that's the point, we don't know whether it's 1d6 or 2d6, until AFTER the tank shock sequence is resolved. So I ask again, how are you going to deteremine whether it's 1d6 or 2d6 BEFORE the Tank Shhock is resolved and before you even know if I'm going to perform a DoG?

Read the additional point again, in fact borrow an Ork codex as I won't be able to access mine again until Friday when I'll be out until work Monday morning so it'll take ages for me to get the exact text.

But it's related to the 'additional' bit if they DoG they then suffer an additional etc not 2d6. Basically it's hinging on the wording in the Ork codex if it's when then it happens when not after and with DoG if you elect to do it you then take another (additional) d6.

Get the proper wordings for both rules and we'll pick this back up say Monday?