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So the time draws neigh for Adepticon!

With only three weeks to go, I am torn about what army to play in the 40k championships. So I turn to the Dakka Dakka members for guidance.


I have the choices of 3 1850 point armies to play:

Army #1. Foot Eldar

Reecius put up an article in BoLS about how good foot Eldar is, and everyone attacked him for it.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/03/40k-tactics-winning-with-eldar-foot.html

Even though the army he posted would not be an army that I would play, the idea that you can win with any foot elder army was viciously attacked by the denizens of BoLS and YTTH. How much winning do I have to do for people to think it is a viable 5th edition army? I do well at tournaments, and several other people like Darth Diggler, and Inquisitor Malice do as well, but still the army gets no respect. I am getting burned out of playing the army though and even if I keep winning with it, unless I play the doubters and whip them like they owed me money, then they will just remain ignorant of the strength of the foot eldar. I guess until you eat 60, strength-6 shots, you just will not know how good the army is.

Here is version 2.0 of the Eldar list:

HQ
Avatar
Eldrad

Elites
4 Harlequins w/Kisses
1 Shadowseer w/Kiss, Fusion Pistol
1 Troupe Leader w/Power Weapon and Fusion Pistol

Troops
10 Guardians w/Brightlance
10 Guardians w/Brightlance

7 Dire Avengers
1 Exarch w/2 S. Catapult, Bladestorm

3 Jetbikes w/Shuriken Cannon
1 Warlock w/Singing Spear, Destructor

Fast attack
5 Warp Spyders
1 Warp Spyder Exarch w/dual spinners

5 Warp Spyders
1 Warp Spyder Exarch w/dual spinners

Heavy Support
3 War Walkers w/Scatter Lasers

Wraithlord w/Brightlance, Missile Launcher
Wraithlord w/Brightlance, Missile Launcher



Army #2 Chaos Space Marines

I am thinking about playing this army because over the summer I am going to build a pre-heresy Thousand Sons army. Although this army will not be pre-heresy, it will mirror the build. It is also my best painted army, so in a tournament with a lot of soft scores it will do well. The downside is that I have not played it since I won a 3 game RTT in Aug, so I might be a bit rusty.

Army List

HQ
Ahriman

Demon Prince w/MoT, Warptime, Winds of Chaos, Wings

Elite
Dreadnought w/TL Autocannons

Troops
9 Chaos Space Marines w/Lascannon, Plasma Gun
Aspiring Champion

9 Chaos Space Marines w/Lascannon, Plasma Gun
Aspiring Champion w/Powerfist
Rhino

8 Thousand Sons Marines
1 Aspiring Sorcerer w/Bolt of Change
Rhino

Heavy Support
2 Obliterators

2 Obliterators

Land Raider


Army #3 Demonhunters

I am thinking about playing this army because everyone says that Demonhunters can’t win in a competitive tournament. They were lumping this army in with the Tau and Necrons as being unwinnable. I think you can win a tournament with any army, and it is the player skill and not the codex that determines if you can win or not, or basically what I am saying is that you can make a winning build out of every codex. So to put my money where my mouth is, I need to step up to the challenge.

And the Demonhunters 2.0:

HQ
Grey Knight Grandmaster
4 terminators w/Psycannon

Troops
5 Grey Knights w/2 Psycannons
1 Grey Knight Justicar

5 Grey Knights w/2 Psycannons
1 Grey Knight Justicar

Imperial Guard Platoon #1
Platoon Command Squad
Junior Officer
Guardsman w/Standard
Medic
2 Guardsmen
Chimera

9 Guardsman w/Lascannon, Plasma Gun
1 Sergeant
Chimera

9 Guardsman w/Lascannon, Plasma Gun
1 Sergeant
Chimera

3 Heavy Weapon Squads w/Autocannons

Imperial Guard Platoon #2
Platoon Command Squad
Junior Officer
4 Guardsman w/Flamers
Chimera

9 Guardsman w/Lascannon, Melta Gun
1 Sergeant

9 Guardsman w/Lascannon, Melta Gun
1 Sergeant


Fast Attack
2 Sentinels w/Lascannons (I can’t find my multilasers)

Heavy Support
Land Raider

I have never really thought about the IG before, but I am still tinkering on the list.

I think the Eldar army is the most robust list and also have the best theme.

Blackmoor wrote:

Even though the army he posted would not be an army that I would play, the idea that you can win with any foot elder army was viciously attacked by the denizens of BoLS and YTTH. How much winning do I have to do for people to think it is a viable 5th edition army? I do well at tournaments, and several other people like Darth Diggler, and Inquisitor Malice do as well, but still the army gets no respect. I am getting burned out of playing the army though and even if I keep winning with it, unless I play the doubters and whip them like they owed me money, then they will just remain ignorant of the strength of the foot eldar. I guess until you eat 60, strength-6 shots, you just will not know how good the army is.

Well maybe I stopped reading after 30 or so posts but I wouldn't say it was viciously attacked. People just said they don't buy it because though it is a strong army it's not tier 1 or anything. Alot of popular things give it a rough time but it handles normal armies very well. I feel it is similar in power to Tyranids. They are awesome against Tactical marines but start to fade in strength against Lash or IG.

On BoLS every article is written like a WWE wrestler is standing on the ropes talkin to the crowd. There is a lot of hype and slang in the articles, they basically read like more one sided versions of GW tactica. Most of the advice is like here is how to simply defeat everything this army could face.

Foot Eldar!

Can I vote a good army?

Blackmoor -

I would prefer if everyone thought foot eldar were bunk. It really helps me out. A list does not need to be validated by the internet to be a good list. The people you play regularly will know and their opinion is all you need. Actually your opinion is all that really matters.

I think you will have the best chance to win with the Eldar. It solves the most problems. That being said, if you don't want to play them anymore I understand. I would vote your chaos army next. I don't think it would do as well - more people expect to see that type of army than the eldar one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just read the post on BOLS and the replies. On the one hand I can see how it is frustrating to read that all your hard work on a list is called crap. That hurts. However I still say there is no point in having the list validated by strangers. None of those people will win national events. Blackmoor if you show up across the table anywhere in the country there is good chance that person will recognize you and respect your abilities. That can not be said for virtually all of the naysayers on BOLS. They just don't know any better.

As to the list. I find it better to keep it under wraps. I, like Reece, would love to show up and challange anyone to play the foot eldar. However it is easy to tailor a list to beat one specific list so they would have the advantage. I still have never seen an IG list win any big tourney, except this past years Ard Boyz. I find it amusing the response to this is there is more to winning at a tourney than a house game. I guess there is, but so what.

I say go with an army you have something to prove with. It will either validate your position or give you some insights. That being said, I voted eldar because I think I'd enjoy reading their batrep the most. It's an odd little list and I'd love to see it in action. Lots of psychic support and synergy and I'm curious as to the viability of scatter laser war walkers at 1850. They're really nasty when they work.

I voted eldar, because I love your batreps. Also, I like seeing the army in action.

I noticed there is no avatar in your latest list though! Why did you drop it?

Dracos wrote:I voted eldar, because I love your batreps. Also, I like seeing the army in action.

I noticed there is no avatar in your latest list though! Why did you drop it?

Opps!

I fixed it. I switched a regular farseer for Eldrad and I took off the wrong HQ.

I'm not playing in the 40k Championships (doing the Fantasy Team with Platuan4th instead) but I'm voting Eldar. Frankly it scares me the most out of any of the other two lists.

I voted for your CSM, as it's the army that scares me least.

Eldar seem to be winning here

i voted DH. eldar and CSM will be there anyways; DH is so old and underpowered that we're not guaranteed that there will be a single army of them in the entire tourney. if you bring them, we are.

I vote IG because you're a bad player and need a crutch.

BTW - quit telling people we do well with foot Eldar. We don't want the secret getting out.

Ozymandias wrote:I'm not playing in the 40k Championships (doing the Fantasy Team with Platuan4th instead) but I'm voting Eldar. Frankly it scares me the most out of any of the other two lists.

This.

I've seen Reecius play enough to know he knows what he's talking about when it comes to this game(not saying you don't Blackmoor, I know your record, I've just physically seen him play). I don't think they'll stop bitching, but you have the talent to back it up and perhaps pull off a win with it.

Inquisitor_Malice wrote:I vote IG because you're a bad player and need a crutch.

BTW - quit telling people we do well with foot Eldar. We don't want the secret getting out.

Mech Guard...now that is an idea!


*Looks throught his pile of 40K*

5 Chimeras
1 Hellhound
2 Sentinels
2 Leman Russes
1 Basilisk

20 Storm Troopers

a bunch of IG infantry

Hmm, a couple of Medusas, Hydras, and Vendettas, and I am in business!




Looks like Demonhunters and Eldar and neck and neck. I am warming up to playing the demonhunters, but I need to improve the list, and I just don't have the points.

I need to have more Grey Knights, because right now the squads are way to small for 5th edition. I also want to throw in an assassin, and GK Terminators for counter assault.

I would have to drop a land raider (which might not be a bad idea because I only own one right now), or a dreadnought, and both of those would hurt my anti-tank. I can drop the Inq Lord and Co, and add an Inq with Mystics.

I could go pure grey knights which asks the question...how many grey knight models do I own?

I guess I'm lumped in with the "huh"? crowd. I don't see how the foot Eldar can do well. Play what you'll have fun with though, Adepticon is too much fun to waste proving some names on the internet wrong.

40kenthusiast wrote:I guess I'm lumped in with the "huh"? crowd. I don't see how the foot Eldar can do well. Play what you'll have fun with though, Adepticon is too much fun to waste proving some names on the internet wrong.

Its cause all of his tournaments he plays against "mech" armies with 3-4 tanks or other crappy lists.

If you are going for winning, I would think just go with the army that has the most current codex. Eldar are cooler, but CSM have the lash.

40kenthusiast wrote: Play what you'll have fun with though, Adepticon is too much fun to waste proving some names on the internet wrong.

I can play the hardest builds out there, but what would that prove? Space Wolves are my very first army and I have put them on the shelf for a while. Same thing with my Tyranid army, because I stopped playing them because winning was to easy with that army.

I like to challenge myself by trying different builds with under used armies. It takes no skill to win with some armies, and I like a challenge.

CptZach wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:I guess I'm lumped in with the "huh"? crowd. I don't see how the foot Eldar can do well.

Its cause all of his tournaments he plays against "mech" armies with 3-4 tanks or other crappy lists.

People react to saying that foot eldar is good the same way you would expect them to when you tell them that Bigfoot exists.

Here is something for you to wrap your mind around, my Broadside Bash army can shoot 60, strength-6 shots a turn.

Also, every army in 40k has bad match-ups, but I think I can still beat a Mech army (I have done it twice), but there is no convincing some people.

60 str 6 shots?

Wow...You might be able to glance 1 chimera to death.

Lets do the math

60 shots
30 hit
5 glance

And if you roll very good you can destroy 1 of the 9-12 chimeras in mech guard.

Look, I know theres more to most lists than mathhammering them out. And I am sure your a fine player. But your list on paper has a very bad game against a heavy mech force.

Its just the tournament scene really hasn't changed to that yet for some reason, or you just keep dodging them. (apparently people can drop 500 to travel across the country to tournaments, but not 200 to make their army competitive)

I think I voted wrong. Oops too late. After looking at the lists again I ended up thinking "wow that Eldar list is pretty slick" I don't see a problem with foot Eldar, I did it all the time back when I only had 1 wave serpent. People are scared to get too close to the harlequins, so you sit at standoff range, and dare them to come close enough for a harlie charge. Where we Eldar have a definte advantage is .

The brightlances in Guardian squads seem kind of a waste though. Scatterlasers give you more of a chance to actually hit something with their crosseyed BS. Besides, the wraithlords both have brightlances and missiles, plus the jetbike warlock's spear, plus the fusion pistols, how much more AT do you need? All those AT points spent for brightlances could be used to upgrade your farseer to having Eldrad's rules, which is always an advantage having that extra psyker power.

CptZach wrote:60 str 6 shots?

Wow...You might be able to glance 1 chimera to death.

Lets do the math

60 shots
30 hit
5 glance

And if you roll very good you can destroy 1 of the 9-12 chimeras in mech guard.

It has to do with target priority. Chimera are not much of a threat to me. The threats are Hydras and Medusas and all I need to do is keep them from firing, and glances will not only do that, but if I get some weapon destroyed as well then I am in good shape. But more often it is about using the right tool for the right job, so I have brightlances for the tanks, and the scatter lasers for the heavy weapon squads.

What is it that I should be afraid of in a Mech IG army? Chimeras? Give me a break. I will just have my guardians in cover, and go to ground until I can take out the heavy support.

Look, I know theres more to most lists than mathhammering them out. And I am sure your a fine player. But your list on paper has a very bad game against a heavy mech force.

Its just the tournament scene really hasn't changed to that yet for some reason, or you just keep dodging them. (apparently people can drop 500 to travel across the country to tournaments, but not 200 to make their army competitive)

I have beaten Mech armies in the past with my Eldar. Do I want to face them in a tournament? No, but if you think that they would walk all over my army you are going to be wrong.

Allan they seem to think the Heavy Flamers on the Chimeras will kill all the foot troops in the eldar army and in this regard they are right. The one thing they can't answer is how they will get those heavy flamers to the eldar troops. Why would the Eldar troops ever get close to the chimeras and when the chimeras drive 12" a turn (not shooting anything at anybody) for 2 turns to get into position to use the heavy flamers on turn 3, those same chimeras would now be in range of a whole bunch of fusion pistols, melta weapons, and singing spears.

A decent cc attack from some eldar would rip apart a chim, as would side shots, that are bound to happen if it actually gets into flamer range.

Your foot eldar are an inspiration. In my opinion it's idiotic to call that army weak. Nothing about it is weak.

Play whatever is most fun to you, but if it's winning you want to do, play the Eldar. You have practiced them, people will have necron-table-wipe complex against you and be totally mind-@#$#ed when you start cleaning the table of their armies.

People attacked him for Foot Eldar? People really seem to have little room for consideration, because that looks really good.

I say use it, because its fun winning with something everyone says sucks right?

Attacked him? like talking schmack sort of attack I assume? All you got to do is shrug it off and say "You play Marines, dude..." and leave it at that. Not to hate on Marine players but they are a helluva lot easier, and maybe that's why about 50% 40k use them. ANY Eldar army has to be used in a skilly way, we don't get to just stomp up the middle of a table with impunity of power armor or 5000 boyz, so anyone talking schmack to an Eldar player is just ignorant. Maybe it's just my Eldar instinct to be arrogant, but we master what I believe is the hardest list there is for careless gameplay, and when we do, we win hard... and therefore get called on our 'cheese' by the stupid monkeys we gave a beatdown to. The store gamers I used to play against cried 'cheese' on me from time to time when I slaughtered them by perfection of maneuver and manipulating line of sight and cover, but none of them ever called it on themselves for having 4 toughness and 3+ saves and drop pods and underpriced landspeeders all just stomping up the board...

I think you should bring whatever army you feel will give you the best chance to win. I am fairly new to the game (15 months) and I think the "weak builds" catch people off guard, giving you an edge. I think Chaos Deamons is a better codex than Necrons, but the Necrons catch peope off guard, and in the current metagame, actually peform at tournaments better than Chaos Deamons.
I think that foot Eldar army, really, really catches people off guard. I fought Darth Diggler at a tournament with my deamons, and when I saw his army I thought hands down Id win.

Not the case, I lost and learned, watching a game unfold, and guessing how it will unfold are two completely differant things. You seem like an experienced player by your battle reps, and your willingness to offer your thoughts and lists pre-tourey for the good of newer players.

Bring what you think will be best, because if I or anyone else plays you, and they happen to win, they dont want excuses about this isnt the list you wanted, or you were trying to prove a point. Not to say you would complain about this, but I want an opponent to face me 100% in tournament play, their best army against my best army.

Just my opinion, and if we play, my Necrons will show no mercy

uhm, unless my maths off,....I count 45 S6 shots.....and 18 of them are Ap- and 12" range lol.

I stand by my earlier post and this will strugle incredibley at any "competent" mech list. By competent mech list, I mean 10+ tanks at 1850....(which is very easy to do with any IG or mech marine army).

Lets look at how you can handle AV14 at range......3 BS3 guardian BL......and the 2 BL wraithlords. so 3x0.5=1.5x0.5=0.75 chance to GLANCE. Were not even talking about doing damage at this point, and your not even at solid number to do damage. the wraithlords arent obviously much better, since EML does really nothing at AV14, the BL is the only chance which again, 2x0.66=1.32x0.5=0.66 to glance.

So come on, dont try and BS anyone here, you face a tri land raider list and you wont stop anything before it hits you.

No dragons in eldar? why..........theres nothing to justify not taking them, unless ofcourse you think the groundbreaking article on BOLS about fire dragons is useful tactics (lol).

Why do people always bring up Tri LR lists and how they will own X list. Have you ever actually seen one? I haven't. If so, its very rare.