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 Stormonu wrote:
Indexes have been out, what - two, three weeks and they're already changing points on things?

:(

Just more reason for me not to buy into the codexes, I guess.

We all knew it was a place holder so that everyone can start on equal footing.

how is anyone surprised about this?

 Desubot wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Indexes have been out, what - two, three weeks and they're already changing points on things?

:(

Just more reason for me not to buy into the codexes, I guess.

We all knew it was a place holder so that everyone can start on equal footing.

how is anyone surprised about this?

I'm not surprised that codexes were coming, I was expecting that. I figured there would be plenty of new relics, psi powers, strategms, detachments, chapter rules, etc. However, that they are arleady "tweaking" point costs strikes me as nothing but power creep enticement to buy the codexes over the indexes.

 Stormonu wrote:
Indexes have been out, what - two, three weeks and they're already changing points on things?

:(

On Saturday it will have been 6 weeks since launch.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Indexes have been out, what - two, three weeks and they're already changing points on things?

:(

Just more reason for me not to buy into the codexes, I guess.

We all knew it was a place holder so that everyone can start on equal footing.

how is anyone surprised about this?

I'm not surprised that codexes were coming, I was expecting that. I figured there would be plenty of new relics, psi powers, strategms, detachments, chapter rules, etc. However, that they are arleady "tweaking" point costs strikes me as nothing but power creep enticement to buy the codexes over the indexes.

Oh that

i dunno im kinda glad that the relics are pretty basic. i dont want super special snowflake marines back again and EVERYONE took the shield eternal (and looks like they still will :/) i dont know why a lot of stuff was already tweaked it seems kinda hasty but while im not naive in the fact that they could be lower a ton of costs for the sake of a quick buck, id like to think the bean counters are not involved on that.

And it doesnt seem to be lowered to a degree that its THAT serious ether.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Indexes have been out, what - two, three weeks and they're already changing points on things?

:(

Just more reason for me not to buy into the codexes, I guess.

We all knew it was a place holder so that everyone can start on equal footing.

how is anyone surprised about this?

I'm not surprised that codexes were coming, I was expecting that. I figured there would be plenty of new relics, psi powers, strategms, detachments, chapter rules, etc. However, that they are arleady "tweaking" point costs strikes me as nothing but power creep enticement to buy the codexes over the indexes.

So if you knew there were going to be things you'd need a Codex for, some of which, such as relics, would have a points cost, then what odds does it make if other things have changed? You still need a Codex for all the other things, you knew the index wouldn't last forever, it cost feth all in the first place by GW (and even wider wargaming) standards and the fact that you are now talking about having to buy it means you got upgraded first. Not to mention that any opponent who has an issue with you using Indexes for at least another month or two, realistically longer than that, is likely a bit of an arse already, so use that as a proverbial canary when playing PUGs.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
It is kind of like a discount missile launcher. Lower strength on both variants and lower range, but otherwise a similar concept. Definitely something I would want to look at.

For 4 points it's auto include I think.

That is kind of my thought as well. Too bad I won't be buying any of the Intercessor kit. I am hoping I can kitbash a grenade launcher onto the DI models. Giving them a pseudo special weapon is pretty great. I would have loved for the Aggressors to have Krakstorm Launchers as an option as well, but oh well.

Its 11 points, not sure where the 4 is from. "Astartes Grenade Launcher" 11 pts

Because its not an Astartes Grenaded Launcher, its an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher.

Considering there is nothing in the points section called "Auxiliary Grenade Launcher"....

There is Astartes Grenade Launcher for 11 pts, and Krakstorm Grenade Launcher for 4 pts.

The datasheet for Intercessors says "For every 5 models in the unit, one may take an auxiliary grenade launcher."

So no surprise here, that GW up their own writing...again, by not being consistent with names. It could literally be either

 Stormonu wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Indexes have been out, what - two, three weeks and they're already changing points on things?

:(

Just more reason for me not to buy into the codexes, I guess.

We all knew it was a place holder so that everyone can start on equal footing.

how is anyone surprised about this?

I'm not surprised that codexes were coming, I was expecting that. I figured there would be plenty of new relics, psi powers, strategms, detachments, chapter rules, etc. However, that they are arleady "tweaking" point costs strikes me as nothing but power creep enticement to buy the codexes over the indexes.

Outside of probably hellblasters and maybe the emperors champion are there any units on that list you think didn't deserve a points reduction, there are very few marines units that are effective for the cost in the index, Robby G is ridiculous and the stormraven is undercosted but then it's just a whole load of mediocre units

 Stormonu wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Indexes have been out, what - two, three weeks and they're already changing points on things?

:(

Just more reason for me not to buy into the codexes, I guess.

We all knew it was a place holder so that everyone can start on equal footing.

how is anyone surprised about this?

I'm not surprised that codexes were coming, I was expecting that. I figured there would be plenty of new relics, psi powers, strategms, detachments, chapter rules, etc. However, that they are arleady "tweaking" point costs strikes me as nothing but power creep enticement to buy the codexes over the indexes.

You say power creep enticement, I say 'living ruleset'.

Honestly, I'd much prefer if they stopped giving rules in giant printed compendiums and instead provided a free app and army builder that could push rule updates and new datasheets on a more consistent basis. Then maybe they can focus on including some hobby stuff in these Codexes instead of just fluff and rules.

 Stormonu wrote:
I'm not surprised that codexes were coming, I was expecting that. I figured there would be plenty of new relics, psi powers, strategms, detachments, chapter rules, etc. However, that they are arleady "tweaking" point costs strikes me as nothing but power creep enticement to buy the codexes over the indexes.

Yeah, I was expecting (hoping for?) more options and advanced rules, not a whole ton of cost reductions that, without the time to actually establish anything needs them, suggests power creep rather than actual balancing.

Edit: if the codex had come out 6 months out, they'd have at least had a little time to gauge how things were running. This feels suspicious and unnecessary.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Indexes have been out, what - two, three weeks and they're already changing points on things?

:(

Just more reason for me not to buy into the codexes, I guess.

We all knew it was a place holder so that everyone can start on equal footing.

how is anyone surprised about this?

I'm not surprised that codexes were coming, I was expecting that. I figured there would be plenty of new relics, psi powers, strategms, detachments, chapter rules, etc. However, that they are arleady "tweaking" point costs strikes me as nothing but power creep enticement to buy the codexes over the indexes.

So if you knew there were going to be things you'd need a Codex for, some of which, such as relics, would have a points cost, then what odds does it make if other things have changed? You still need a Codex for all the other things, you knew the index wouldn't last forever, it cost feth all in the first place by GW (and even wider wargaming) standards and the fact that you are now talking about having to buy it means you got upgraded first. Not to mention that any opponent who has an issue with you using Indexes for at least another month or two, realistically longer than that, is likely a bit of an arse already, so use that as a proverbial canary when playing PUGs.

Well, that's the thing - I did not plan to buy the codex (any of them). I was hoping the codexes would mostly be expanded fluff and OPTIONAL extras you could get by with if you just wanted a basic level/stripped down version of the game. Preferably stuff that is somehow balanced with an opportunity cost if taken (but hey, this GW, from what I've seen leaked "power creep" is their middle name; they can't leave balance well enough alone) While the points reductions won't add up to maybe a few extra figures or upgrades in the end, the perception it creates is that you're further gimping yourself by NOT using the codex point costs, on top of the other goodies in the codex.

As stated upthread, if they'd waited a year or so before they started mucking with points for existing things, I'd be a lot less suspicious about their motives for changing the points value so soon.

 Stormonu wrote:
Indexes have been out, what - two, three weeks and they're already changing points on things?

:(

Just more reason for me not to buy into the codexes, I guess.

Best get used to it. All signs point to GW using a similar model to the one they have for AoS, where points(amongst other things) get revised and updated on at least a yearly basis via the Generals Handbook. The whole reason they put the points in separate lists at the back of the books instead of on the unit data sheets is so they can easily be updated on a regular basis.

I'd be more concerned if the points didn't change after the additions of Chapter Tactics, Relics, Stratagems, etc.

 Ghaz wrote:
I'd be more concerned if the points didn't change after the additions of Chapter Tactics, Relics, Stratagems, etc.

So... those things should make most pieces worth... less?

 Ghaz wrote:
I'd be more concerned if the points didn't change after the additions of Chapter Tactics, Relics, Stratagems, etc.

All armies will get somethin akin to Chapter Tactics, and all armies will get their own relics and stratagems.

The thing is, if people don't get their codex soon, they'll complain that their army will be at a disadvantage against armies who do have a codex = stupid GW.
On the flipside, if they do get their codex soon, they'll complain that their index which they "paid good money for" gets invalidated to fast = stupid GW.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
I'd be more concerned if the points didn't change after the additions of Chapter Tactics, Relics, Stratagems, etc.

All armies will get somethin akin to Chapter Tactics, and all armies will get their own relics and stratagems.

The thing is, if people don't get their codex soon, they'll complain that their army will be at a disadvantage against armies who do have a codex = stupid GW..

And they would be right.

If not a Marine codex, i Reckeon 6-8 months for most Codexs. Thats a long time. (10 Codexes before Christmas - 3 are Marines or Chaos Marines, Likely at least Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Blood and Dark Angels - so 3 others to be Codex Blessed)

Thats a problem with only powering up one army at a time using Codexes rather than updating all armies at the same time as they did with the Index.

We will see with the nexy Dex how bad Codex Creep is.

Now we have at least 6 ways to play 8th edition!

Since Necrons will likely be last or near last in the release schedule that means nobody I play will be allowed to use the codex for at least one year.

Given that editions seem to be cycling in every two year now, I will play 40K for the next 12 months with 8th including index vs index rules ignoring all codex then quitting for one year and returning in 9th.

It is impossible to win without a realizable plan, and I think I just found one.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
I'd be more concerned if the points didn't change after the additions of Chapter Tactics, Relics, Stratagems, etc.

All armies will get somethin akin to Chapter Tactics, and all armies will get their own relics and stratagems.

The thing is, if people don't get their codex soon, they'll complain that their army will be at a disadvantage against armies who do have a codex = stupid GW..

And they would be right.

If not a Marine codex, i Reckeon 6-8 months for most Codexs. Thats a long time. (10 Codexes before Christmas - 3 are Marines or Chaos Marines, Likely at least Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Blood and Dark Angels - so 3 others to be Codex Blessed)

Thats a problem with only powering up one army at a time using Codexes rather than updating all armies at the same time as they did with the Index.

We will see with the nexy Dex how bad Codex Creep is.

Didn't GW say that they will release 12 codeci before christmas? That's once every second week.
3 or more of them are likely to be Marines (SM, GK, CSM). Doubt Thousand Sons will get their own Codex though.
Which leaves 7: Let's assume that 2 of these are additional marine-armies like BA and/or SW.
5 codeci to go: Eldar (maybe only craftworld, maybe all three kinds), T'au, Orks, Necrons and Tyranids.

Either way, If anyone complains that their codex won't be updated within the next 3 months they must be new to this hobby as they don't know the pain of having to wait for *several years*.

I'd say GW is doing fine, releasing one codex every second week.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Didn't GW say that they will release 12 codeci before christmas? That's once every second week.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

How long do I have to wait? I want them now!
Not long! Codex: Space Marines lands in July, and then before Christmas, we’re aiming to have around 10 codexes available for you to choose from.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
I'd be more concerned if the points didn't change after the additions of Chapter Tactics, Relics, Stratagems, etc.

All armies will get somethin akin to Chapter Tactics, and all armies will get their own relics and stratagems.

The thing is, if people don't get their codex soon, they'll complain that their army will be at a disadvantage against armies who do have a codex = stupid GW..

And they would be right.

If not a Marine codex, i Reckeon 6-8 months for most Codexs. Thats a long time. (10 Codexes before Christmas - 3 are Marines or Chaos Marines, Likely at least Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Blood and Dark Angels - so 3 others to be Codex Blessed)

Thats a problem with only powering up one army at a time using Codexes rather than updating all armies at the same time as they did with the Index.

We will see with the nexy Dex how bad Codex Creep is.

Didn't GW say that they will release 12 codeci before christmas? That's once every second week.

You can expect to see around 10 new codexes before Christmas, starting with Codex: Space Marines, coming later this month.

So 4 confirmed as Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Grey Kinghts Space Marines, Deathguard Space Marines - see a pattern at all?

Returning rules for individual craftworlds, as well as previously unexplored groupings like Necron dynasties and Adeptus Mechanicus forge worlds.

So the three non Marine Dexes this year may in fact be

Necrons, Eldar Craftworlds and Ad Mech.

I'd say GW is doing fine, releasing one codex every second week.

Or one Marine dex a month - yeah great.

If anyone complains that their codex won't be updated within the next 3 months they must be new to this hobby as they don't know the pain of having to wait for *several years*.

Fine for my Marine armies - if I want to buy half a dozen codexes with little if any new material except for Primaris Marines (and does anyone not think they will ge their own dex). As a Sisters player - Yeah I think I know the pain of waiting,

SM, CSM, GK, DG (why they get their own codex I will never understand), Necrons, Eldar and Ad Mech.

That's 3 more to go though.

Either way, complaining about it won't do any good, and we still have people that complain that their codex got updated first.

 MinscS2 wrote:
SM, CSM, GK, DG (why they get their own codex I will never understand), Necrons, Eldar and Ad Mech.

That's 3 more to go though.

Either way, complaining about it won't do any good, and we still have people that complain that their codex got updated first.

Isn't that the point of Forums to Discuss/Argue/Complain etc. I have said the same on their Fb page - ie expressed my opinion and concens

If we have to suffer Codexes - Chaos Power dexes would have been much better.

I can't see Thousand Sons not getting a Dex if Deathguard have one?

So lets be generous and say 12 codexes before Christmas

1. Space Marines
2. Grey Knight Space Marines
3. Death Guard Space Marines
4. Chaos Sapce Marines
5. Eldar
6. Space Wolves Space Marines
7. Necrons
8. Blood Angels Space Marines
9. Ad MEch
10. Dark Angels Space Marines
11. Primarius Space Marines
12. Thousand Sons Space Marines

Speculation is fine.

I doubt that Primaris Marines will get their own codex though, given their inclusion in C:SM.

Likewise, I wouldn't say it's guaranteed that both BA, SW and DA will get new codeci before christmas. Probable? Yes, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

As for Thousand Sons, they got love last Christmas, so I doubt they'll get their own codex this time around. They can easily be embedded in the CSM-codex by simply adding unit entries for Magnus, Ahriman, Exalteds, Scarab Occults and Tzaangors.

I think the only reason DG get their own codex is because they are the new poster boys for 8th Ed. alongside Primaris Marines. Sadly for everyone else...

 MinscS2 wrote:
Speculation is fine.

I doubt that Primaris Marines will get their own codex though, given their inclusion in C:SM.

Likewise, I wouldn't say it's guaranteed that both BA, SW and DA will get new codeci before christmas. Probable? Yes, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

As for Thousand Sons, they got love last Christmas, so I doubt they'll get their own codex this time around. They can easily be embedded in the CSM-codex by simply adding unit entries for Magnus, Ahriman, Exalteds, Scarab Occults and Tzaangors.

I think the only reason DG get their own codex is because they are the new poster boys for 8th Ed. alongside Primaris Marines. Sadly for everyone else...

Thousand Sons are I think likley as the range is so recent. Its about as valid as the snowflake Chapters.

They kept releasing dexes for Stormcast for AOS - I think they will have a much larger range of Primaris Marines - inlcuding Drop Pod equivalents and aircraft and so they will "need" their own dex - which will be fine as "Any Marine player can us these units"

It really sad how this seems to be developing.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
SM, CSM, GK, DG (why they get their own codex I will never understand), Necrons, Eldar and Ad Mech.

That's 3 more to go though.

Either way, complaining about it won't do any good, and we still have people that complain that their codex got updated first.

Isn't that the point of Forums to Discuss/Argue/Complain etc. I have said the same on their Fb page - ie expressed my opinion and concens

If we have to suffer Codexes - Chaos Power dexes would have been much better.

I can't see Thousand Sons not getting a Dex if Deathguard have one?

So lets be generous and say 12 codexes before Christmas

1. Space Marines
2. Grey Knight Space Marines
3. Death Guard Space Marines
4. Chaos Sapce Marines
5. Eldar
6. Space Wolves Space Marines
7. Necrons
8. Blood Angels Space Marines
9. Ad MEch
10. Dark Angels Space Marines
11. Primarius Space Marines
12. Thousand Sons Space Marines

Wasnt there something about IG dropping soon as well? Pretty sure they were supposed to be one of those dexes that were hinted to drop after the confirmed 4, possibly in 5th or 6th place. I also seriously doubt that BA will get much love this year, considering they were "nearly wiped out". In fact, I wouldnt be surprised if non-codex SM get put on the backburner for a while, so primaris can get the spotlight.

But, but but they can make Primarius Wolfy Wolf Wolves on giant Wolves etc. ( I hate what they did to my Space Wolves)

Can't see them not doing that.

There was a rumor mill image of a laspistol type thing but i dont recall anything about an IG book rumor.

If GW wants to release a full stand alone Primaris range but still keep within there "no rules without models" policy, spreading the kit releases out with the various SM codex books would be the way to do it IMO. If by the end of the year we have new Primaris usable by all SM flavours(with the exception of the GK) released alongside any of the variant chapter books then they are probably getting a dedicated codex.

From here:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

"Finally, if you don’t have a Space Marines army, don’t worry – it really won’t be long before you have a codex of your own. We’re committed to supporting all of Warhammer 40,000’s major factions with codexes. You may be envious of Space Marines and their Chapter Tactics and Stratagems now but just think: soon you’ll have your own tricks and ploys to play, and unique rules for your Traitor Legion, Astra Militarum Regiment or Forge World of choice."

I'm expecting two codexes from each index book in this initial wave. Based on available hints, I'd say it was likely to be:

Space Marines
Grey Knights

Heretic Astartes
Death Guard

Adeptus Mechanicus
Adeptus Militarum

Necrons
Craftworld Eldar

+2 from the other Index Xenos. No predictions as to which.

Oh my god, A Primaris Codex so soon, are you serious?
Talk about people confirming their own bias... Theres many actual and confirmed things GW has do to critique them. Why is people so willing to invent and assume the worst?

 Galas wrote:
Oh my god, A Primaris Codex so soon, are you serious?
Talk about people confirming their own bias... Theres many actual and confirmed things GW has do to critique them. Why is people so willing to invent and assume the worst?

By the end of the year - almost certainaly.

Want to put money on it not happening