A Dark Day for American Democracy?

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**Flashman**

So Obama has got his Healthcare bill through and now you Americans won't be royally stitched up if you get sick and miraculously don't appear to be covered for that particular strain of cancer. However, one of our newspaper commentators (Telegraph) called this a "Dark Day for American Demoncracy". Really? I know it's costing a fortune and you lot will be paying high taxes for the rest of your lives, but it's got to be better than the current system surely?

The only problem I can see (apart from the astronomical cost) is that it perpetuates your crazy mandatory health insurance system, but I guess it's too difficult to dismantle the US Health Insurance industry in the same way we will never be able to dismantle our chaotic privatised railways.

Still, a step in the right direction IMHO.

Any cynics care to argue the point?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apologies, just noticed the thread just below this one is about the same topic.

Please lock!

**Ratbarf**

13 trillion dollars in debt last time I checked before the massive bailouts and now they want to spend another trillion on healthcare? Sure by all means its a good thing, it just has horrible timing. THey really need to pay off their debt before they go on a spending spree. otherwise they may as well just hand over America to the Chinese, its what happened to Britain during the Suez Canal Crisis, if America ever does anything China severely disagrees with all it has to do is call in its debt and ka blamo, instant worthlessness of their money.

**ounumen**

Woohoo I get be taxed to help the whopping 30 million sick lame lazy and slowed get health care. Yup I am thrilled over it. Cant wait to see what else Obama has planned. Damn I am so angry over this I cant think.

**Vladigar**

You know the old sayings...

There's a sucker born every minute.

Be careful what you wish for. You might get it.

**sebster**

ounumen wrote:Woohoo I get be taxed to help the whopping 30 million sick lame lazy and slowed get health care.

So the people without medical insurance are all lazy? Wow.

**Waaagh_Gonads**

Problem I see with it is that when you get sick the health insurers are forced to cover you if you don't have insurance.
If you don't have insurance you get fined.
However as american health care is crazy expensive for anything over the application of a band-aid it will in any serious case be cheaper to just take the fine and opt in when you do get sick.
So why bother with having insurance?

Apparently this is the frst time in Congress history that the minority party has unanimously voted no to a bill.

**Frazzled**

ounumen wrote:Woohoo I get be taxed to help the whopping 30 million sick lame lazy and slowed get health care. Yup I am thrilled over it. Cant wait to see what else Obama has planned. Damn I am so angry over this I cant think.

Don't forget 10-20mm illegal immigrants when they are granted amnesty this year. Thats step 2.

**IG_urban**

one of the main issues I see...is that it is opening up the floodgates for a socialist totalitarian dictatorship. I would love to discuss..

**SagesStone**

So if they don't pay taxes they don't get the health cover? Is this similar to the Medicare thing here where you have to be registered on a system otherwise it doesn't benefit you at all?

**WarOne**

Frazzled wrote:
ounumen wrote:Woohoo I get be taxed to help the whopping 30 million sick lame lazy and slowed get health care. Yup I am thrilled over it. Cant wait to see what else Obama has planned. Damn I am so angry over this I cant think.

Don't forget 10-20mm illegal immigrants when they are granted amnesty this year. Thats step 2.

Funny thing about that is if we give illegal immigrants auto-citizenship, we're gonna have to hunt these people down. They don't want to have their untaxed incomes go to the Yankees rather than the families who need it back in their home countries.

It would be like the UK granting Irish citizens UK citizenship, but to pay for it, they would charge a tax on their guinness stout and Irish whiskey. How long do you think that would last?

**Vindicator#9**

You know i found the whole thing a teard rolled in powdered sugar and called a jelly doughnut. That is all that needs to be said about it. The thing that really irks me about it is they havent even given us an idea of how much the fine is if you dont have insurance. Hell for all i know it could cost the same as or more than insurance in the first place. If so how the hell do they expect people to pay the fine if they couldnt afford the insurance to begin with.

**Ahtman**

I can see disagreeing with the choice, but I don't see how it is a dark day for democracy. If anything was a product of democracy. It wasn't as if this was brought in by a coup, but with votes. Unless this is a criticism of democracy and not the vote. In that case, carry on.

**Drk_Oblitr8r**

Is caring about someone else really that bad?

I don't know much about it, but I do remember seeing some politian guy on a talk show who was against it. He had the graph or something. He didn't say anything about what was written in any detail, just saying that it was a complicated graph, and compared it to Candyland.

It worries me that people would be against something purely because they couldn't understand a simple graph...

**Frazzled**

n0t_u wrote:So if they don't pay taxes they don't get the health cover? Is this similar to the Medicare thing here where you have to be registered on a system otherwise it doesn't benefit you at all?

No unless you're the wife's ex husband, if you don't pay taxes you generally go to jail or get stuff seized.

From Pelosi with love,

**Waaagh_Gonads**

Take a deep breath everyone.
Read your posts before posting it and try to avoid trolling/flamebaiting

**Commissar Molotov**

All the right-wingers are working themselves up into a froth about "socialism" - it's just like they did over Medicare. Mmmm, the sweet, sweet tears of ultimate sadness... Now, I just have to take the day off to wish Rush Limbaugh a pleasant self-imposed exile to Costa Rica.

Flashman, do you wanna know why some people are so vehemently opposed to this bill? It was President Obama's signature project, and everybody that hates him hates this bill by extension. The right wing tried to make this bill a referendum on Obama - often by outright lying about what the bill actually contained. No big suprise - these are the same idiots who will claim with a straight face that Obama was born in Kenya and hence couldn't possibly be president, nosirree.

**Envy89**

We will see how much the American PEOPLE wanted this bill come November.

**Frazzled**

All the right-wingers are working themselves up into a froth about "socialism" - it's just like they did over Medicare. Mmmm, the sweet, sweet tears of ultimate sadness... Now, I just have to take the day off to wish Rush Limbaugh a pleasant self-imposed exile to Costa Rica.

Flashman, do you wanna know why some people are so vehemently opposed to this bill? It was President Obama's signature project, and everybody that hates him hates this bill by extension. The right wing tried to make this bill a referendum on Obama - often by outright lying about what the bill actually contained. No big suprise - these are the same idiots who will claim with a straight face that Obama was born in Kenya and hence couldn't possibly be president, nosirree.

You keep thinking that. When the democrats are swept from office you can commisserate to your fellow travellers how unwashed the mases are and how dare they try to think for themselves.

Save your Republic Teddy!

**Da Boss**

WarOne wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
ounumen wrote:Woohoo I get be taxed to help the whopping 30 million sick lame lazy and slowed get health care. Yup I am thrilled over it. Cant wait to see what else Obama has planned. Damn I am so angry over this I cant think.

Don't forget 10-20mm illegal immigrants when they are granted amnesty this year. Thats step 2.

Funny thing about that is if we give illegal immigrants auto-citizenship, we're gonna have to hunt these people down. They don't want to have their untaxed incomes go to the Yankees rather than the families who need it back in their home countries.

It would be like the UK granting Irish citizens UK citizenship, but to pay for it, they would charge a tax on their guinness stout and Irish whiskey. How long do you think that would last?

Actually, the British have been granting the Irish special rights in the UK for decades. Irish people can vote in local elections over there, and can serve in the UK military with no problem (my brother was a royal marine), and if we pay evena bit of tax over there we can get a lot of treatment for free out of the NHS. You also don't need a passport to travel between the two (though that's the same all over Europe now, but it was the case for Ireland and England for a long time) (You do need ID though).
Not that my countrymen are ever particularly grateful about it. But I wanted to point it out. I think the UK government is pretty decent and has done a lot of great stuff throughout history.

Bit OT.
I think worse things than this bill have happened to american democracy in the last decade. But hey if you don't like it, use your vote!

**Vladigar**

Ahtman wrote:I can see disagreeing with the choice, but I don't see how it is a dark day for democracy. If anything was a product of democracy. It wasn't as if this was brought in by a coup, but with votes. Unless this is a criticism of democracy and not the vote. In that case, carry on.

It was a product of circumventing the rules, creative accounting and hard-sell propaganda. The U.S. isn't a true democracy, anyway. It's a republic.

**Frazzled**

Da Boss wrote:I think worse things than this bill have happened to american democracy in the last decade. But hey if you don't like it, use your vote!

And the Irish dude wins the thread.

**fullybakedbear**

Last week we had unregulated health care based on the principle that profit for a miniscule minority is more important than the general health of the nation (a security issue in and of itself).

Now we will have a marginally regulated health care model with the people setting the prices screaming that it is impossible for the entire sector to operate because they, unlike everyone else, have to be ensured a high profit rate, government subsidies and bailout guarantees.

It's like a robber saying "I'm going to shoot you in the stomach and take all your stuff. If you move or resist, i'm going to shoot you in the head".

I just wish all the right wing wackos would learn the definition of "socialism" and "socialized medicine"... and maybe look at where it works and doesn't work instead of spouting jingo.

**Commissar Molotov**

"You keep thinking that. When the democrats are swept from office you can commisserate to your fellow travellers how unwashed the mases are and how dare they try to think for themselves."

Okay, here's a snapshot of the idiocy on the right:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/20100323/ts_dailybeast/7269_scarynewgoppoll

67 percent of Republicans (and 40 percent of Americans overall) believe that Obama is a socialist.

57 percent of Republicans (32 percent overall) believe that Obama is a Muslim.

45 percent of Republicans (25 percent overall) agree with the Birthers in their belief that Obama was "not born in the United States and so is not eligible to be president"

38 percent of Republicans (20 percent overall) say that Obama is "doing many of the things that Hitler did"

Scariest of all, 24 percent of Republicans (14 percent overall) say that Obama "may be the Antichrist."

The full results of the poll, which will be released in greater detail tomorrow, are even more frightening: including news that high percentages of Republicans—and Americans overall—believe that President Obama is "racist," "anti-American" "wants the terrorists to win" and "wants to turn over the sovereignty of the United States to a one-world government." The "Hatriot" belief that Obama is a "domestic enemy" as set forth in the Constitution is also widely held—a sign of trouble yet to come. It's the same claim made by Marine Lance Corporal Kody Brittingham in his letter of intent to assassinate the President Obama.

You're in GREAT company there, Frazz.

**mattyrm**

I disagree with many of my compatriots on this issue, almost all of them infact, as i dont like the NHS.

If i had to get health insurance, i would get it. I would stay off the beer two more days a month to pay for it. Or eat less, or get a crappier car, or spend less on clothes or IPODs or Laptops, but i would get it.

If you could opt out of the NHS and go private, i would. But they charge me for it anyway with my NI contributions, so i am stuck with it, cos im not paying that AND private health care.

Our NHS pays for boob jobs, obese people to get flew to fat camps, Portugese Men to become women (remember Nadia?!) Alcoholics, Junkies and drug addicts, hookers and professional fraudsters from abroad.

feth the NHS.

I feel bad for my American friends i really do.

Im a naturally cold hearted man, i dont care about people i dont feel i have anything in common with. I dont get a twinge on my heart strings when i see charity commercials, and i dont care about people dying in Gaza or Africa, i care about me, people i know, and people i genuinelly feel affection for. Not junkies and hookers and pushers and alcos and all the types of people i never speak to or mix with.

Im tired of paying for everyone else at the expense of my own happiness. Is my quality of life better or worse because i pay more taxes to feed, cloathe and medically treat scum i wouldnt even throw a penny at in the street?

But most people arent as honest as me...

Sorry guys, but your life is going to get worse to make sure scumbags lives get better.

Thats essentially what this is. Just like them writing off credit card debts, its basically less rewards for sensible people like me who never get into a debt and would always have health insurance, and more rewards for irresponsible feth heads.

I dont see whats good about it.

**Frazzled**

fullybakedbear wrote:Last week we had unregulated health care based on the principle that profit for a miniscule minority is more important than the general health of the nation (a security issue in and of itself).

Now we will have a marginally regulated health care model with the people setting the prices screaming that it is impossible for the entire sector to operate because they, unlike everyone else, have to be ensured a high profit rate, government subsidies and bailout guarantees.

It's like a robber saying "I'm going to shoot you in the stomach and take all your stuff. If you move or resist, i'm going to shoot you in the head".

I just wish all the right wing wackos would learn the definition of "socialism" and "socialized medicine"... and maybe look at where it works and doesn't work instead of spouting jingo.

Health care is highly regulated. I don't know where you're getting that from.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Commissar Molotov wrote:"You keep thinking that. When the democrats are swept from office you can commisserate to your fellow travellers how unwashed the mases are and how dare they try to think for themselves."

Okay, here's a snapshot of the idiocy on the right:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/20100323/ts_dailybeast/7269_scarynewgoppoll

67 percent of Republicans (and 40 percent of Americans overall) believe that Obama is a socialist.

57 percent of Republicans (32 percent overall) believe that Obama is a Muslim.

45 percent of Republicans (25 percent overall) agree with the Birthers in their belief that Obama was "not born in the United States and so is not eligible to be president"

38 percent of Republicans (20 percent overall) say that Obama is "doing many of the things that Hitler did"

Scariest of all, 24 percent of Republicans (14 percent overall) say that Obama "may be the Antichrist."

The full results of the poll, which will be released in greater detail tomorrow, are even more frightening: including news that high percentages of Republicans—and Americans overall—believe that President Obama is "racist," "anti-American" "wants the terrorists to win" and "wants to turn over the sovereignty of the United States to a one-world government." The "Hatriot" belief that Obama is a "domestic enemy" as set forth in the Constitution is also widely held—a sign of trouble yet to come. It's the same claim made by Marine Lance Corporal Kody Brittingham in his letter of intent to assassinate the President Obama.

You're in GREAT company there, Frazz.

You missed the one that matters:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000937-503544.html

Pelosi's favorable rating in the poll stands at 11 percent. Her unfavorable rating, meanwhile, is 37 percent -- meaning that more than one in three views the California Democrat negatively.
Read the Complete PollReid's favorable rating, meanwhile, is even lower: Eight percent. His unfavorable rating stands at 23 percent.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/22/cnn-poll-majority-disapprove-of-obama-for-first-time/?fbid=UZ7VCLYMU-u

CNN poll: Majority disapprove of Obama for first time
Posted: March 22nd, 2010 11:07 PM ET

From CNNMoney.com Deputy Managing Editor Rich Barbieri

A new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll reveals that 51 percent of respondents disapprove of President Obama's job performance.
Washington (CNN) – For the first time, a CNN poll has found that a majority of Americans disapprove of President Obama's job performance.

According to a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll released Monday, 51 percent of respondents disapprove of Obama's job performance and 46 percent approve of it.

Full results (pdf)

Obama's approval rating has dropped steadily each month since December, when it was 54 percent. His highest approval rating in a CNN poll was 76 percent in February 2009 shortly after he took office.

The new poll was conducted before the House on Sunday narrowly approved the Obama administration's signature domestic policy proposal: health care reform.

The measure, which Obama plans to sign on Tuesday, represents the biggest expansion of federal health care guarantees since Medicare and Medicaid were enacted more than four decades ago.

In fact, health care was the policy area that drew the second highest negative rating, with 58 percent registering disapproval. The highest negative rating was 62 percent for his handling of the federal deficit.

While his performance ratings have slid, Americans personally like Obama. The poll found that 70 percent of respondents approve of him as a person, and only 25 percent disapprove.

On the economy overall, 54 percent disapprove of his work and 43 percent approve. He scored well for his handling of the environment and education, as well as on national security.

"Obama scores some of his best numbers on 'commander-in-chief' issues - Afghanistan, Iraq, and terrorism," said Keating Holland, CNN polling director. "In January, 51% approved of Obama's handling of Afghanistan; that number is now 55%, an indication that the public has a positive view of the latest military offensive in that country."

The CNN poll was conducted on March 19-21 through telephone interviews with 1,030 adult Americans. The poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

Filed under: CNN poll • Extra • Popular Posts • President Obama

**Mr-_-Flidd**

Frazzled wrote:
Da Boss wrote:I think worse things than this bill have happened to american democracy in the last decade. But hey if you don't like it, use your vote!

And the Irish dude wins the thread.

If American votes meant anything would the stuttering, semi-slowed cluster

Bush Jnr have made it to the heady heights of president? I think not. (As does anyone with an IQ over their shoe size, unlike mr Bush (jnr and snr))

As for the OP. I haven't looked into it properly so cannot comment with any real conviction.

But, from what I have seen it's a good thing for the country as a whole and a bad thing for the economy. Hardly the worst thing to happen to your country in a decade or 2 (see first comment).

My 2 cents worth.

**Da Boss**

Votes got Bush in. Votes got Obama in. How do votes not matter?

**Mr-_-Flidd**

Da Boss wrote:Votes got Bush in. Votes got Obama in. How do votes not matter?

The only thing that matters in any voting system is who's counting them.

last 2 cents worth

**Tyyr**

The problem with this bill is that like most everything to come out of Washington it does nothing to fix healthcare, at all. Calling this a healthcare bill is quite frankly laughable. This is a health insurace... well reform doesn't seem to be the right word, tweak? We'll go with tweak. It's a health insurance tweak bill. Maybe change, regardless it's not reform.

Anyways, the problem with this bill is that it doesn't fix the problem with healthcare, spiraling costs that have gotten ridiculous, and instead just band-aids it by giving insurance, sort of, to people, and making it illegal to not have it. To truly fix the problem you have to deal with the costs. As an example when my daughter was in the hospital we were charged $400 (267 pounds) for 10ml of pain killer, $800 every time the doctor opened her chart, etc. A bill that took at look at the root cause of those costs being that ridiculously high and did something to reduce those costs would start to fix the problem and lower health care costs across the board, saving money and resulting in more insured Americans.

Now some aspects of the bill are not bad, such as not allowing insurance companies to drop customers and allowing people with preexisting conditions to get insurance though we need to remember that doing so is going to raise insurance rates. Things like that are probably called for but on the whole the bill was a monstrous meandering piece of legislation that will do nothing to really fix healthcare. Pretending it does is idiocy.

**Frazzled**

Mr-_-Flidd wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Da Boss wrote:I think worse things than this bill have happened to american democracy in the last decade. But hey if you don't like it, use your vote!

And the Irish dude wins the thread.

If American votes meant anything would the stuttering, semi-slowed cluster Bush Jnr have made it to the heady heights of president? I think not. (As does anyone with an IQ over their shoe size, unlike mr Bush (jnr and snr))

As for the OP. I haven't looked into it properly so cannot comment with any real conviction.

But, from what I have seen it's a good thing for the country as a whole and a bad thing for the economy. Hardly the worst thing to happen to your country in a decade or 2 (see first comment).

My 2 cents worth.

At least he was elected. in light with your trashing of my President, how's that peasant smashing welfare sucking guttersnipe queen of yours?
Take back your comment and I'll take mine. Or maybe we'll both be banned. Either is fine by me.