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Hey all, I know this is not a dedicated D&D forum, but I figured that since I'm already a member of this forum I'd ask here first, that way when I ask on proper D&D forums I dont sound like a no nothing newb. So me a couple buddies and our gf's want to get into D&D, however it comes off as a bit overwhelming, So guys what would you reccomend for a starting RPG player? what books, models, terrain (if needed) do I need, or should consider getting.

Strictly you only need the core book, the Players Manual, Dungeonmasters Manual and the Monster book. After that books are for extra spice and tend to be a mixture of rule or inspirational/fluff heavy. Some are chock full of expanded rules for magic and weapons, others are source books for campaigns.

I'd suggest considering the version you want to buy into. 4.0 is the most recent, but many people are sticking with 3.5, all the books are out there and the second hand value is much lower than new 4.0 books, but don't be put off having an older edition, many groups are still using it, if not the majority from what I've seen.

Other than that it's nice to have miniatures of your player characters and a surplus of other figures for odd things, but it's not essential. Maps can be bought, printed off from online or hand-drawn. Other stuff like dice and a dungeonmasters screen are necessary too but they're all fairly inexpensive.

IIRC, there was actually quite a bit difference between 3.5 and 4 right?

The difference I recall is that we would get out the battle map in 3.5 only for encounters. In 4, you pretty much enter the dungeon and then the move on the board (more like a board game etc). If I have my editions correct, 4th is the one with the warlords introduced.

The meta for that edition was drastically different from the previous style (with the introduction of shifts etc, goblins/kobolds can be brutal early on with free shifts).

You will need to have some sort of board for the battles. I suggest getting a clear plastic/perspecs (spelling) board what you can use whiteboard markers on (can draw in rooms, record Hp's taken, initiative etc and then wipe off) that you put on top of a peice of gib-board that has been maked with squares. It's great.

Yeah, you need a PHB, DMG and Monsters guide. You dont need models (see whiteboard markers), but it is nice. You can proxy anything for those however.

Does it have to be D&D? I notice you mentioned GF's playing.

Games like shadowrun or paranoia might be more light hearted.

There is a Starter set includes counters and a quick start adventure.
On the WotC sight there is a downloadable free PDF adventure/quickstart rules set, that has most everthing you need.
It is call Keep on the Shadowlands.

Cmac, 4th doesn't require a map for anything other than encounters. You can even run encounters without a map, but it's more fun with.

You don't need minis either, a marker and a grid works just as well, or pencils and a rubber at a pinch.

Da Boss wrote:Cmac, 4th doesn't require a map for anything other than encounters. You can even run encounters without a map, but it's more fun with.

You don't need minis either, a marker and a grid works just as well, or pencils and a rubber at a pinch.

True on the map. I guess it depends on the preference of your gaming group. Most groups I have been in like to "roll dice" (power game?), so basically when we got into a dungeon we would map it out. It is a clear sign that something is about to happen if the DM starts to do the map up, hence generally for the out of town/in dungeon stuff we would be in map mode most of the time. The players didnt mind that. The thieves would also then be able to spive off and loot chests etc. Wasn't a LG party...

People would generally pick up a mini as it was a "status" point to have your own character. I was a fire mage, so I used one of my fire dragons. It was handy for one of the lads to bring his/her 40k/WFB army for bulk troops for the baddies. Its a bit easier to move figures rather than pencil in/rub out.

I guess encounters could be run without a map, but some of the spells/shifts/reach weapons/DM traps etc were easier to grasp with a map.

DM "Ok, you just walked on the pit trap, and you fall onto the poisoned spikes"
Player "No I didn't, my character wasn't there..."

Yup, it all comes down to group and player preference. I run some games with miniatures, and battle maps, and they're fun. Certainly 4th benefits from some sort of nice map.
In 3.5 I never really bothered outside of a couple of games using the map. It was fun when we did, with the right group. The situation you've described with the pit trap thankfully rarely came up. When running games in College we used to book at tutorial room and use the black board for mapping stuff, very handy.
It's all down to what the group enjoys.

My GG used to use generic pre-printed maps of various locations (parks, forests, warehouses, etc) to play on with models (usually the really cheap packs of heroclicks models).

We also had SW galaxy tiles to create more interesting custom layouts for maps.

I always find it quicker and more interesting to game if you can actually see what is actually going on.

SilverMK2 wrote:My GG used to use generic pre-printed maps of various locations (parks, forests, warehouses, etc) to play on with models (usually the really cheap packs of heroclicks models).

We also had SW galaxy tiles to create more interesting custom layouts for maps.

I always find it quicker and more interesting to game if you can actually see what is actually going on.

Nice! Sounds like you had a pro-active GM.

I think the "new" class the Warlord really needs the map to shine, and it does shine.

4th ed seems to take on the WoW system with DPS, Tank and control. IMO, it was quite different from the system I had played for the last 2 decades.

Ranger, rogue and warlord are really fun to play btw, depends what you like

You'll hear a number of extreme opinions on 4th vs. 3.5 but at the end of the day it's you and your friends rolling dice and pretending to be fantasy people. I run more 3.5 than I do 4th simply because I have more books for it. Everyone's spot on as far as grids go. You can even use a spreadsheet program to make a grid and draw on it with colored pencils and everyone can make a tiny cardboard stand-up for what it matters. The main thing you'll want is to read the core rulebooks a few times each and play a "practice" game with everyone first so you can make mistakes and figure it all out. I wouldn't worry about having too much attention to detail in your first characters because sadly they'll suck. It takes a bit to get used to the system, get a feel for the flavor of the game and to determine your groups preferences. If you want any DM/GMing tips, feel free to PM me and I'll be glad to help out

I always find the choice of a fixed of rotational DM is quite important. Number of reasons for both...

I suggest using OSRIC or Labryth Lord..

http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/

http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.html

both are simple and free to download!

-P

As a big 1E AD&D fan, I can say that after giving OSRIC a read through - I agree!

Looks like fun, and it's a very fertile land to use your imagination on and in!

If you are the one who is going to be running this game I strongly recommend going with 4ed and picking the 3 core books (players handbook, monster manual I, the dungeon masters guide). The 4ed DMG is probably the best guide for new game masters I have seen to date. Reading it will help you get an idea of the hows and whys of running a game and even help on how to handle different types of groups/individuals.

Go to the Wizards of the Coast website and find the listing of game groups in your area. Download the Character Creator while you are there as well. Go meet people and have them help you learn the game. The only thing you need just to try it is to print out a character sheet. If you like it you can expand on it from there.

I started with the Basic game for 3.5 and got the second 3.5 basic game as well. They are both really good sets if you could ever find one and the rules set is really good and flexible. I prefer it to 4e personally.

@OP:

Learning D&D is not as hard as learning a GW game. You need to keep one thing in mind: when you want to do something, you roll a twenty-sided die and add or subtract a number that represents your ability to do that thing; if the result is high enough, you succeed. Everything else falls into place around that "core mechanic." As to what version:

If you have four or less players including the DM, you may want to try 3.5--in which case, you will need to find second hand books -OR- you can get these lovely books published by Paizo (a company that significantly improved the 3.5 rules): Pathfinder Core Rulebook, which contains the equivalent of both the Players Handbook and the Dungeon Masters Guide, and Pathfinder Bestiary, which is the Paizo Monster Manual. If you are going with 3.5, I would advise getting the Paizo stuff and forgetting about the Wizards-published D&D 3.5 stuff altogether. Paizo is genuinely better and is often referred to as D&D3.7 for that reason.

If your group is five or more people (including the DM), I would suggest going with 4th Edition. You could start with the bare bones set or go ahead and get the first wave of core books and the starter adventure (which will be easier than attempting to write your own on the first go). IMO, 4th Edition is more fun than 3.5 as it requires a better sense of teamwork and player interaction as well as being a lot easier for a DM to run. Unfortunately, I think it doesn't work as well as 3.5 for small groups.

You will also need some miniatures and each person will have to get a set of dice, Chessex being the all around best. The usual set contains one each of four-, six-, eight-, twelve-, and twenty-sided dice as well as two ten-sided dice that can be combined and used as a 100-sided die. You will probably also want to eventually get a fairly large 1"x1" grid mat and some specialty markers. These last things are required for either 3.5 or 4.0--don't let anyone tell you that you don't need minis or mats to play 3.5 properly. It's a bald-faced lie.

Feel free to PM with any questions you may have.

4ed is much easier to run as a first time GM. The rules for everything are boiled down. That being said, after a while if you want to expand your playing style or try something that is not covered in the books it is much harder to adapt then 3.5 (or 3.75 Pathfinder.)

As a player 3.5 is better for me. It allows much more variance then 4th does.

Note: I also firmly believe that in any game Kobalds and Goblins should be cannon fodder. 4ed makes them tough as hell on a smaller size group.

4th is by far the easiest version of D&D to DM. The DMG is the only one which does a decent job of explaining it, and the monster stats and encounter design, while more complex than Basic D&D, are simpler and better-explained than in 1st ed, 2nd ed, 3rd or 3.5,

I haven't run 4th Edition, only played, but it looks like making fun encounters for it may be difficult. They have some guidelines and an online encounter builder, but that just helps balance combos of monsters against a set party. The best 4th edition fights seem to have a lot of interesting scenery to manipulate or fight around. (Pits, steam, statuary, etc.)

This doesn't apply if you're using pre-made adventures, though. And you can spice up or stretch out premade adventures easily, such as adding ties to the character's backgrounds.

Balance, you are dead-on. It is especially difficult to write up encounters for smaller groups. I think it would come more naturally along with playing more often/over a longer period. I've known DMs in 3.5 to play for a solid year and then totally screw up CRs resulting in massively disappointing TPK.

My usual advice to this is to plan conservatively and add escape plans whenever possible:

Give the bad guys a secondary goal besides just 'kill the party.' Maybe they're satisfied with taking a prisoner (I.E. the first PC down) and will grab the prisoner and run.

Maybe the PCs can take advantage of help, too: If an encounter looks to be overpowering, throw in an ally character or similar. Just be careful to not allow an ally to overshadow the PCs, which is another common GM mistake most of us have done, I'd guess.

I love minis when I play; painting them is what brought me here.

I would recommend playing 4ed, going through the 'scales of war' adventure path if you can download it.

Also, in a pinch common magic:the gathering cards can be cut down for the card art to make monsters on the board (if you don't have an appropriate mini- if you have orks from a WHFB army no reason not to use them)