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I have a question for any dakkatrons, (which sounds much cooler than dakkaites) from Europe, is big game hunting legal in your country? I was curious since I myself am a hunter and I go every year that I have time and money to do so. Is it legal to hunt with a firearm in your country? and if it is illegal to own firearms where you live, can you hunt with a bow or crossbow etc? Please make sure to mention where you're from since I'm not familiar with every flag I see next to your names.

No dude, in Europe they still use bows and arrows and swords. And they even have castles and knights and stuff.

Around here in my country, only the royals hunt the odd boar every now and then. Other than that, people are only allowed to hunt clay pigeons and cardboard objects. That is, if you can pass the many requirements and demands for owning a firearm in the first place.

Go hunt in Africa, shoot an elephant or something, with a .577 Tyrannosaurus rifle.

What do you call big game?

It means lions and elephants to a Brit, that kind of thing.

Do wild boars count?

Well I go bow hunting from time to time in the Good ol' U S of A. So I figured somebody in europe might do the same. Dakka is the best way for me to communicate with people from far away places, it's my window to the world.

@ kilkrazy: I'd consider big game to be animals like deer, elk, moose, bear, boars, etc. Small game is like rabbits, quail, pheasant, grouse etc.

You can do deer stalking in the Scottish highlands. That needs a rifle.

It's legal, providing you meet each country's rules for firearms licensing, training and so on. For small game and wildfowl shotguns are mostly used, rifles used for deer and pig mostly. Having hunted in Germany and UK I'd say cost and time are the problem, eg you may get a licence/permit in Germany to take a 3 year old buck, but shoot anything else and you're in jail pretty quick!
It's usual to be accompanied by a professional stalker/forest ranger until you're known to be competant; it's not unknown for stalkers/rangers to walk the incompetant for miles without seeing an animal, but if you are any good they'll find what you're paying for.
Incidentally, you pay for the day's stalking, that probably includes range practice and lunch, finding the animal and help with the gralloch if you need it. It doesn't include the carcase, trophys or anything else unless you pay (more) for them.
Germany often has formal hunts for wild boar, where beaters drive the boar towards hunters in high seats or bunkers, end of the day it's traditional to lay out all the game shot in a set order before buglers sound calls for each species ( to send their spirits on the way). Deer and pig have pine twigs placed in the mouth as "the last bite", a mark of honour to the animal. All this is done by the light of flaming torches, very atavistic your first time!
Anyone wants more info, a German book "Jager einmal eins" is "the Bible" for law and lore there.

IG GENERAL wrote:It's legal, providing you meet each country's rules for firearms licensing, training and so on. For small game and wildfowl shotguns are mostly used, rifles used for deer and pig mostly. Having hunted in Germany and UK I'd say cost and time are the problem, eg you may get a licence/permit in Germany to take a 3 year old buck, but shoot anything else and you're in jail pretty quick!
It's usual to be accompanied by a professional stalker/forest ranger until you're known to be competant; it's not unknown for stalkers/rangers to walk the incompetant for miles without seeing an animal, but if you are any good they'll find what you're paying for.
Incidentally, you pay for the day's stalking, that probably includes range practice and lunch, finding the animal and help with the gralloch if you need it. It doesn't include the carcase, trophys or anything else unless you pay (more) for them.
Germany often has formal hunts for wild boar, where beaters drive the boar towards hunters in high seats or bunkers, end of the day it's traditional to lay out all the game shot in a set order before buglers sound calls for each species ( to send their spirits on the way). Deer and pig have pine twigs placed in the mouth as "the last bite", a mark of honour to the animal. All this is done by the light of flaming torches, very atavistic your first time!
Anyone wants more info, a German book "Jager einmal eins" is "the Bible" for law and lore there.

Thanks for the informative post, it sounds like Germany has strict rules on hunting, (which is a good thing IMO). I wasn't sure if you could use a firearm for hunting in europe or not, since they have stricter rules on gun ownership. Do you know if anyone ever bow-hunts in Europe? Any idea on how much a tag costs in US currency over there? Also, I assume the guide assists with carring your kill out? The ritual of putting twigs in the deer's mouth sounds a lot like a tradition we have over here. It's customary for a youth on their first hunt to attempt to take a bite of the deer's heart, according to my uncle it's a native american tradition, but it just as likely could be one of his pranks. We also make sure to leave any left over innards for scavangers like coyotes, and crows. Circle of life you know, wot wot.

BrookM wrote:Around here in my country, only the royals hunt the odd boar every now and then. Other than that, people are only allowed to hunt clay pigeons and cardboard objects. That is, if you can pass the many requirements and demands for owning a firearm in the first place.

Go hunt in Africa, shoot an elephant or something, with a .577 Tyrannosaurus rifle.

Err... look here brookm To the rest it is in ferrignese so no need to look.

Basicaly you can hunt in the netherlands but only if you have a permit. To get the permit you need to fill the following criteria:
* You are 18 years old
* You ave passed an huntingexam
* You have an liability insuranve
* There is no evidence that you wil abuse the right to hunt
* There is no evedence that you wil abuse the right to bear a firearm and munition
* At the moment of applying for a permit the you have not been denied the right to hunt
* You have not been convicted for a offence specified in the huntinglaw up to 2 years before applying for the permit

To hunt boar etc. You need a special permit granted by the state and they will only grant when there is to much of specific species. And then only to a select few hunters
Small game generally has an hunting season.
atm there are 28.000 people in the netherlands with a hunting license.

Grtz
L.D.

I rarely hunt,but my uncle does and he mostly catches rabbits and other small thinga,my area is poor with wildlife.

Whereas in the USA hunting is a common pastime that has no social boundaries in England what IG General is describing is out of reach of most ordinary people unfortunately. Its very expensive. Firearms laws in this country are beyond strict and the Government are slightly to the left of Jo Stalin on the whole subject.

Fishing is far more accessible to ordinary people here, so they tend to do that (although it bores the hell out of me) but even that is regulated tightly.

Come to Oz. 'Roos, Pigs and Water Buffalo (?) are all paopular.

Also the fishing.

Jimi Nemesis wrote:Come to Oz. 'Roos, Pigs and Water Buffalo (?) are all paopular.

Also the fishing.

Amen.

Tasmania's midlands and plains are packed with deer as well. Like, tens of thousands of them. You can't possibly miss if you blindfire at them from a mile away.

I like a spot of fishing now and again on nice spring and summer days.

2 easy steps to hunt in Europe:

1. America annexes all of Europe, except the Russian parts and the Balkans.

2. Proudly wave around a Constitution while firing a PROUDLY MADE IN AMERICA .22 Ruger casually into the air, as everything is open season while in America.

Lolwut? Everybody knows hunting in NZ is so much better than australia.


But seriously it is. anything thats not a duck or a rare animal is fair game.

sevend3f wrote:Lolwut? Everybody knows hunting in NZ is so much better than australia.

Yep, everything from small birds to tourists there. At least we have big bouncing animals that make a fair target. And if you feel like killing a lot of them, go to a farm, and ask the farmer about roo problems.

Aldramelech wrote:Whereas in the USA hunting is a common pastime that has no social boundaries in England what IG General is describing is out of reach of most ordinary people unfortunately. Its very expensive. Firearms laws in this country are beyond strict and the Government are slightly to the left of Jo Stalin on the whole subject.

Fishing is far more accessible to ordinary people here, so they tend to do that (although it bores the hell out of me) but even that is regulated tightly.

He's right, it's expensive. Having got licences, shooting permits, shotgun(s), rifle and scope, binoculars, clothing and accessories, ammunition, a car to get there and back etc etc, you'd be looking at about £100 for a stalk. My last, I left home at 3am to get to the area, meet the ranger and set off before dawn. Only out for cull bucks (roe deer), but that £100 lasted about 20 minutes! Buck seen, a scrawny 3 year old weighing about as much as a spaniel, buck shot, gralloched and back to the ranger's for heart & kidneys fried for breakfast. No meat, no trophy.
Similarly, a bunch of us once bought shooting rights over about 200 acres of mixed forest, bought and raised 2000 pheasants and worked all year on feeding, controlling vermin, replanting and so on. That autumn we awarded ourselves 1 day shooting per fortnight from october to new year. 30 shooters, total bag for season 300 pheasant, a few woodcock and 1 grouse (we think it was lost). Cost? £2000 per shooter for shooting rights, £200 per shooter for pheasants, plus feed, transporting water and feed up a 1 in 4 mountainside every day for a year, plus trapping vermin ( legally, traps checked daily). Still, it's a hobby!

Next time someone suggests wargaming costs too much, offer that as an alternative.

Norwulf wrote:I have a question for any dakkatrons, (which sounds much cooler than dakkaites) from Europe, is big game hunting legal in your country? I was curious since I myself am a hunter and I go every year that I have time and money to do so. Is it legal to hunt with a firearm in your country? and if it is illegal to own firearms where you live, can you hunt with a bow or crossbow etc? Please make sure to mention where you're from since I'm not familiar with every flag I see next to your names.

i know in austria that its rare to hunt anything but semi demesticated deer. here was a bear shot up near Bavaria that was causeing trouble (an almost exstict species that was gunned down by the equvilant of forest rangers, cause it was killing livestock) a few years ago. but for the most part there isnt any real big game left that isnt endangered or illigal. at least not in western europe.

In Ireland you need to sort out a licence and a place to shoot, but you can hunt goats and deer once you have.
I think the states are better though. You can't hunt with a bow or crossbow here.
I think too you have to prove you're a good marksman to do deer hunting with a rifle.

IG GENERAL wrote:

Aldramelech wrote:Whereas in the USA hunting is a common pastime that has no social boundaries in England what IG General is describing is out of reach of most ordinary people unfortunately. Its very expensive. Firearms laws in this country are beyond strict and the Government are slightly to the left of Jo Stalin on the whole subject.

Fishing is far more accessible to ordinary people here, so they tend to do that (although it bores the hell out of me) but even that is regulated tightly.

He's right, it's expensive. Having got licences, shooting permits, shotgun(s), rifle and scope, binoculars, clothing and accessories, ammunition, a car to get there and back etc etc, you'd be looking at about £100 for a stalk. My last, I left home at 3am to get to the area, meet the ranger and set off before dawn. Only out for cull bucks (roe deer), but that £100 lasted about 20 minutes! Buck seen, a scrawny 3 year old weighing about as much as a spaniel, buck shot, gralloched and back to the ranger's for heart & kidneys fried for breakfast. No meat, no trophy.
Similarly, a bunch of us once bought shooting rights over about 200 acres of mixed forest, bought and raised 2000 pheasants and worked all year on feeding, controlling vermin, replanting and so on. That autumn we awarded ourselves 1 day shooting per fortnight from october to new year. 30 shooters, total bag for season 300 pheasant, a few woodcock and 1 grouse (we think it was lost). Cost? £2000 per shooter for shooting rights, £200 per shooter for pheasants, plus feed, transporting water and feed up a 1 in 4 mountainside every day for a year, plus trapping vermin ( legally, traps checked daily). Still, it's a hobby!

Next time someone suggests wargaming costs too much, offer that as an alternative.

Yikes. Here in the states (at least my state) you can buy a Mossberg 30-06 hunting rifle for $600; hunting license with doe tag ran about $70, scope for $150 and a box of 20 rounds is $40.

So for around $900 you get a gun and scope that are yours for a lifetime (or until either one ceases to function) and then it's around $70/season to hunt deer and then of course ammo. So in the states I spend around $200 for travel, food and gas, license and ammo for the privelage of hunting. Ammo is actually the worst part at $2/round but oh well.

I imagine that there is significantly less wild country in the UK, and much of Europe for that matter, compared to the US. This would translate into lower game reserves, and tighter regulations; taking the form of higher prices.

IIRC, in Germany a person has to own at least 10,000 hectares to get shooting rights. This "revier" is usually farmland/forest so there's more investment to keep it all good. The fees for shooting, mostly to a cull plan drawn up by the forestry service, offset the costs a bit.

In UK, Scotland's the main place for Red,Sika and Roe-mainly because it's sparsely populated north of the Glasgow/Edinburgh line. The estate keepers always struggle to meet cull plans, so there's plenty of stalking available, at a price.

In England there's plenty of deer in the Lake District, Sussex and the South Downs, with roe, muntjac pretty much anywhere. Most forestry is run/owned by the state, and their rangers are very clued up. But expensive.

Changes in food hygiene laws caused a lot of expenditure updating coldstores etc, adding to the cost.

Anyway, I gave up (partly due to being old and knackered) and now build tanks instead, which is starting to be just as obsessive and costly!

In norway we hunt dear, doe and elk/moose? and wher i come from we got the largest tribe of dear in northern europe. Hunting season ussualy last's from aougust to 23december. All hunting is done with rifles since hunting with bows/crosbows are unlegal.

Aldramelech wrote:Whereas in the USA hunting is a common pastime that has no social boundaries in England what IG General is describing is out of reach of most ordinary people unfortunately. Its very expensive. Firearms laws in this country are beyond strict and the Government are slightly to the left of Jo Stalin on the whole subject.

Please, learn your political spectrum. Left does not equal authoritarian, Left-Right and Authoritarian-Libertarian are separate scales.

Sorta wish we had a bit more gun control over here. Just heard about a Christian militia in Michigan getting raided. Apparently they were preparing for the Apocalypse. Yay for the 2nd Amendment!

Mad Rabbit wrote:Please, learn your political spectrum. Left does not equal authoritarian, Left-Right and Authoritarian-Libertarian are separate scales.

There is no universally accepted model of political thought. Linear, square, and cubic models have all been advocated, many of them containing different axes. Telling someone that they don't "know their political spectrum" when they use a different one from you - a very commonly used one, I might add - is uncalled for.

Norwulf wrote:Well I go bow hunting from time to time in the Good ol' U S of A. So I figured somebody in europe might do the same. Dakka is the best way for me to communicate with people from far away places, it's my window to the world.

@ kilkrazy: I'd consider big game to be animals like deer, elk, moose, bear, boars, etc. Small game is like rabbits, quail, pheasant, grouse etc.

Not here in the Netherlands, the thing's you need to get a firearm in the first place isn't worth the effort... and there really isn't anything to hunt left. Everythings either been hunted to local extinction in ages passed or protected. But yea, we have what.. like one natural forest left in the entire country? Maybe 2 if your being optimistic, rest is all planted by man. Only times you can hunt something here is overpopulation but that's done by the Rangers.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Mad Rabbit wrote:Please, learn your political spectrum. Left does not equal authoritarian, Left-Right and Authoritarian-Libertarian are separate scales.

There is no universally accepted model of political thought. Linear, square, and cubic models have all been advocated, many of them containing different axes. Telling someone that they don't "know their political spectrum" when they use a different one from you - a very commonly used one, I might add - is stupid.

"Firearms laws in this country are beyond strict and the Government are slightly to the left of Jo Stalin on the whole subject."
This is the statement to which I objected because it equates the Left-Right spectrum DIRECTLY with a position on the Authoritarian-Libertarian spectrum, which, while not universal, is valid. The existence of Leftist groups that would oppose gun control (Anarcho-Collectivists) immediately disproves this. Thus, it appears that the poster is arguing on the basis of traditional Labour/Conservative or Democrat/Republican politics, in which case the comparison to Stalin is hyperbolic and quite incorrect.

It is true that there are different axes, but such a statement is nearly indefensible and argued on perceptions used by politicians to cause fear rather than any sort of objective political study.

Thus I believe that your criticism - based on an assumption that the existence of multiple models justifies any statement - is stupid.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Jimi Nemesis wrote:Come to Oz. 'Roos, Pigs and Water Buffalo (?) are all paopular.

Also the fishing.

Amen.

Tasmania's midlands and plains are packed with deer as well. Like, tens of thousands of them. You can't possibly miss if you blindfire at them from a mile away.

Hell, with each deer having two heads, you couldn't possibly miss

But yeah, You don't really need a permit to kill things on your own land, or if it's someone elses, you need to ask them. Roos are a big problem to farmers, as are foxes, bunnies, pigs and cats. With all of them, you can shoot them to your heart's content, as long as you know the landowner and have their permission.

Mad Rabbit wrote:"Firearms laws in this country are beyond strict and the Government are slightly to the left of Jo Stalin on the whole subject."
This is the statement to which I objected because it equates the Left-Right spectrum DIRECTLY with a position on the Authoritarian-Libertarian spectrum,

NO IT DOES NOT. It It equates a position on the Right/Left spectrum with a position on the Right/Left spectrum. He is using a one-dimensional model of political ideology, so there is no Authoritarian-Libertarian spectrum.

which, while not universal, is valid.

Mere validity in insufficient. You said that his view was incorrect, because it didn't align with your model.

The existence of Leftist groups that would oppose gun control (Anarcho-Collectivists) immediately disproves this. Thus, it appears that the poster is arguing on the basis of traditional Labour/Conservative or Democrat/Republican politics, in which case the comparison to Stalin is hyperbolic and quite incorrect.

The (obviously intentional) hyperbolic nature of the statement has nothing to do with the model being used to express it. In the traditional Left/Right dichotomy Stalin and the Soviet communists are usually considered the furthest leftward group. Hitler and fascism are usually considered the rightmost. While this makes little sense to me, it is what it is.

As no model realistically attempts to express every political ideology perfectly, it is impossible to "disprove" any of them. You can say that the difference between the model and the reality, or the frequency at which significant differences arise, is indicative of it being poor model.

It is true that there are different axes, but such a statement is nearly indefensible and argued on perceptions used by politicians to cause fear rather than any sort of objective political study.

I'm defending his statement in any case. Only criticising yours.

Thus I believe that your criticism - based on an assumption that the existence of multiple models justifies any statement - is stupid.

Strawman. I did not say that the existence of multiple models justifies any statement, I said that the existence of multiple models renders your statement - "Please, learn your political spectrum. Left does not equal authoritarian, Left-Right and Authoritarian-Libertarian are separate scales" - invalid, because it presupposes one model as being the correct one (and Aldramelech is thus ignorant when he fails to realize this).