Space Marine HQs

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**Kythras**

So, looking at sample army lists and reading tactical advice, I can find very little to support taking any space marine HQ choice other than a librarian. Is this the case? I'd prefer to take a captain (I can see why Chapter Masters are a waste) as it fits more with the character of my army, but I'm willing to sacrifice fluff to serve good sense.

So, give me the wrap on space marine HQs...

**Kirasu**

Here is a short version about SM Hq
Im assuming you want good Hqs

Captain is alright, mostly seen on a bike so you can bikes as troops.. Relic blade + SS is best combo for any captain (Artificer if you want but thats just a more expensive and weaker vulkan). For 170 pts you can get a captain on foot with the above gear.. yet vulkan is 190 and has a heavy flamer + master crafted sword and then ALSO makes every single melta, flamer and TH a ton better..

Librarian will null z one is probably best secondary HQ for marines.. Most of the tough lists have this because null zone is amazing

chaplain - no
ultramarine characters - dont play smurfs please.. theyre all just over costed

Then you have Vulkan, Pedro, Lysander who are the characters you see in almost every SM army.

I dont know what chapter you want to do but vulkan is by far the best character.. He makes all the weapons you should be using anyway.. better

Pedro is good for sternguard and coordinated assaults due to +1 attack

Lysander is good if you face people with big monsters.. otherwise hes sorta like pedro but not as useful

I dont think ive used any HQ other than the 3 special guys, bike captain and librarian since the rest are really meh. Like I said, the only combinations ive really seen that win are Vulkan + Librarian, Bike captain, pedro + librarian then maybe lysander and someone else

**Lord Rogukiel**

I agree with Kirasu.

But if you don't want any special characters for some reason or other, then I recommend a SM captain, nice and simple. You don't have to make him exceptional. Just take him for the form if you really want or a librarian like you said.

If you don't do much with your captain, you can spend the points elsewhere;

**JSK-Fox**

Anyone like MotF here?
:(

Anyways, if you enjoy having a vast amount of dreadnoughts, and not so many tanks/support vehicles, then use the Master of the Forge. He let's you get dreads as HS choices, and for the low price of 115, you can give him a power weapon, and for 120/118, you can give him a PW and a SB.

**willydstyle**

If you want to dread bash, the BA are going to be far superior for it in just a few days.

Captains are good for unlocking bikes as troops... and that's it.

Libbys are great for Null Zone... it's one of the reasons to play "generic" space marines.

Most of the special characters offer something worthwhile, but Lysander is pretty much just a pure ass-beater, which newer books do better.

Don't discount Sicarius, Rites of Battle is an amazing ability.

**Zombie Savant**

I'd put in another vote for the Master of the Forge if you like Dreads. The BA Dread builds, while cool, are really limiting (Furioso and Furioso Librarians are good, but expensive, and are close-combat only. You can only take a max of three "regular" dreads, and the Death Company dreads certainly beastly, but have rage so really need stormravens to transport them to where they'll work, you would also need to take death company to get them).

Aside from his Dread-enhancing, he's actually a pretty damn versatile HQ choice for 100-115 points or so. He has a servo-harness, bolsters a single ruin before the game begins, and can repair vehicles, all while having two wounds and a 2+ save. I like to attach him to a 5 man combat squad with a combi-weapon on the sergeant, pawn off the AP3 hits on him, absorb the AP2 with bolter marines, and can get to shooting to fire off a special weapon, a combination of the harness mounted and regular weapons (whichever is appropriate), and a combi-weapon from the sergeant. It works particularly well for me, as I usually castle this squad in between two dreadnoughts. I'll get their fire taken care of, then run the dreadnoughts back in front, making it impossible to assault without getting stuck in with the dreadnoughts.

**General_Chaos**

I have the Master of the Forge in my 9 Drop Pod list. 5 Dreadnoughts hitting the table turn one is very effective.

**JSK-Fox**

A good thing about the MotF is that heis cheap, so losing him is not nearly as bad as any other HQ.

**Btone**

I use a MOTF with conversion beamer and I stick him in a scout squad with telion with snipers or just next to depending on whom I face. I find that he can be underrated by alot of opponents and it also helps you with anti-tank/deathstar units. Putting him on a bike also works but against some opponets (tau e.g) you have to play carefully or he can be shot to peices before he does anything.
The rest of the HQ's act like everyone has said. Captain for bikes, Librarian for generic assault, special characters for armies that are based around them (well, maybe not for vulkan, he's just generally awesome).

**Lord Rogukiel**

I admit I hadn't thought of that.

**Norade**

MotF with a conversion beamer is a nice cheap way to get a railgun blast. I use him much the same way Btone does and he's to small to be worth shooting at, yet too big a threat to ignore which can force difficult choices.

**Corennus**

Space Marine Captain with Artificer Armour and Master crafted weapons.

Armour will soak up most of what enemy can hit you with, and master crafted means you've got more chance of taking down anything on the field. And all without the bulkiness of terminator armour.

Plus don't forget the Command Squad or Honour Guard options. Having a less poweful captain can mean you can go to town on the command squad. Sergeant with Storm Bolter and power weapons, Company Champion with his requisite weapons, and an apothecary to save you from all those nasty turns of the dice will help your captain survive the most nasty of engagements.

**Sanctjud**

@Corennus:
There are no more master crafted options for the Captain any more...

Art Armor is an indulgence.
While the Command Squad can be useful they need a proper role... like special weapon spam to suppliment/compliment the list.

As for the Sergeant: Storm Bolter/lightning Claw is better...hell drop the storm bolter, claws are better than just power weapons, but I find a Combat Command Squad questionable to begin with.

**Grey Templar**

why no Chaplain love?

the ability to grant rerolls on the charce to a single unit and he gets more wargear for his price then the Captain.

Captain gets a CCW, bolter/pistol, 4+ invuln

Chaplain gets a Power weapon, Pistol, 4+ invuln, fearless, reroll misses on charge to unit.

both cost the same.

**willydstyle**

IMO it's just because Cassius is such a good buy, and if you're looking for a discount HQ the librarian offers a bit more utility for a non-CC oriented army.

Chaplains are good with assault terminators... and that's about it. And if you're running a chappy with assault terminators, you might as well run Cassius, because he has similar durability.

**Corennus**

EEEEK! NO MASTER CRAFTED WEAPONS!!!

NO FAIR!!

ok. well my view is you either take an uber hard, uber killy, uber expensive model as your general (think Chapter Master), or you take as low points captain as possible and again go to town on the command squad.

Chaplain in Terminator Armour should be pretty good as command unit.....but I just don't like Chaplains.

In a non-terminator army I think a captain in artificer armour backed up by some seriously killy CC squads should work.

**Norade**

Corennus wrote:EEEEK! NO MASTER CRAFTED WEAPONS!!!

NO FAIR!!

ok. well my view is you either take an uber hard, uber killy, uber expensive model as your general (think Chapter Master), or you take as low points captain as possible and again go to town on the command squad.

Chaplain in Terminator Armour should be pretty good as command unit.....but I just don't like Chaplains.

In a non-terminator army I think a captain in artificer armour backed up by some seriously killy CC squads should work.

Just no...

Given the choice of special commanders that can benefit your whole army if you choose to build around them and the Librarian/MotF as cheap options that can still do the job asked of them. Getting an 'uber killy' Chapter Master is all well and good but what does he add to a unit that nobody else can do? As for those uber killy command squads, why bother? They charge a target, maybe even multi charge if you have enough points left to crack transports, and then they get shot/flamed/blast markered to death the next turn.

Besides at minimum a Captain with a command squad will run you 215 points and get eaten by th/ss termies which cost 15 points less. Besides, what do you gain by building such a squad? To make them into semi-assualt termies you need to spend 455 points to get your commander Artificer Armor, Relic Blade, Storm Shield, an Apothecary, and 4 Veterans with th/ss. This unit costs 5 more points than 5 assault termies in Land Raider and if we compare them we'll find that the termies in an LR Crusader are the better buy every time.

**Corennus**

Ok. Well thing is if you're going with a NON TERMINATOR army (like a second company army) then you need something very hard hitting with good saves. Only squad I can think of that will have that is a command squad.

Now whether we lead with a chaplain, librarian or Captain is down to us. I don;t take librarians in my army cause they're not part of my army makeup.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
But now that I think about it, since i'm not allowed to field a Primarch (which is what I was intending before I re-read the Codex), I might get ONE librarian to stand in for him.

**Norade**

You assume that you need a super hard assault unit to win a game for you when this isn't the case. If you spend 490 points on a melee unit mounted in a rhino, it has to be a rhino because second companies don't get Land Raiders, then you're going to be in for a tough game. I pop that transport with a much and leave your hammer unit floundering mid field while I clean off the rest of your army from the board.

Seriously taking a command squad is the worst thing you can do even if you are sticking to a themed build.

**Corennus**

hmmmm interesting point norade.

Please bare in mind i've only JUST started playing this game properly, and many of my assumptions of the game are turning out as not being viable.

Still, i'm going to make a command squad just to see how it pans out.

Also there must be some point to taking a SM Captain or they wouldn't give him so much extra stuff to equip him with!

**JSK-Fox**

As many of us shall disagree or agree upon such a matter, it's hard to get a sraight answer. I just follow what I would theorize would work, and if it doesn't, it's life. Who cares if you lose many times. All you need is to have fun.

**Norade**

The thing is there are a ton of units in 40k that are there but aren't worth taking. Keep in mind what you want your Captain to do and then look at the special characters that might fill the same role while providing something extra. For example Vulkan He'stan versus a Captain with Artificer Armor, Storm Shield, and Relic Blade. They have the same stat line, including saves, but for the extra 35 points Vulkan has a heavy flamer, his relic blade is master crafted, he twin-links flamers, heavy flamers, meltas and multi-meltas, and makes thunder hammers master crafted. The winner there is clear.

I don't often play as SM and my lists tend to play the army as site back and shoot so I can't give an example of a non-termy assault unit you'd want him with, but you could run a drive by flamer unit with him and part of a combat squaded tactical squad in a rhino. If you don't find it a waste of points you could do even better by putting Vulkan and a HF equipped Sternguard squad together and make the idea even deadlier.

**nivondu**

I think one of the most underrated HQs is MotF. He is cheap enough to be viable in low point games and he has enough options to be flexable in high point games. Personally I give him a conversion beamer and a 10 man tac squad with ML.

**acastonguay**

Any thoughts on Vortex of Doom for the libby??

**Sanctjud**

Vortexlibby in TDA w/ StormShield.
Otherwise, I'm not too thrilled with the slight chance of instant killing him.

Short range and small blast means it's prob. best as a vehicle hunter when he comes down in a pod with company.

Otherwise, I do prefer Avenger/Null but on a bike.

**Grey Templar**

Norade wrote: it has to be a rhino because second companies don't get Land Raiders

actually this is wrong. all line companies have at least 1 landraider.

1st company has more then the others usually

**Corennus**

Ok I have my captain with a Storm bolter and Power Fist.

Question:

Is this best option or should I start again?

And also is an Adamantine Mantle still a viable piece of wargear?

**Distortionist**

I wouldn't give a power fist to the captain due to his high initiative (I don't think having an expensive model with a 3+/4+ going last is a good idea) unless you put him in terminator armor and give him a thunder hammer (a power fist with a few perks) and storm shield (but I'm not sure that's a good idea either). As others said, giving him a bike is probably the best you can do for him, maybe lightning claws too?

You cannot buy a admantine mantle anymore.

**Volkan**

The problem with Power fists on Captains is that you end up wasting their decent initiative. If I were doing a foot captain I would probable go something like:
Captain: Relic Blade, Storm Shield (If you really want something to shoot Aux Grenade launcher) and then load him up with a unit in some sort of transport.

Most people will mention that there are more effective options for an army than the Captain. The exception being a bike captain which opens bikes as troop options.

Also the Adamantine Mantle is not in the most recent Space Marine Codex. Do you happen to have the one with Calgar on the cover?

Cheers,
~Volkan

**barlio**

I used to run an Epistolary Lib (Null Zone & Avenger) with Vulkan, TH/SS Termies, in a LR. Having Vulkan and the Lib jumping out and dropping 2 templates is pretty devastating (even against MEQ).

I've dropped the Epistolary from the Lib and just leave him in the LR to get the most out of Null Zone.

Tigurius is a bit overcosted (and needs an Inv save), but his ability to re-roll Reserve rolls and Psychic power selection is pretty sweet.