Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I know there are ways you can make Combat Tactics work. Using Dreads is nice, but I would rather have them shooting stuff than locked into combat.

You have a 58% chance of being caught in a sweeping advance by other I 4 units (unless you still have another unit locked into the combat). So I generally do not think it is worth while trying to run away.

Exactly, if you have another unit locked in the combat, like a Dreadnought, you can Fall Back, automatically Rally thanks to And They Shall Know No Fear, and then use Heavy Weapons thanks to And They Shall Know No Fear. The opportunity cost of firing the Dreadnought's Heavy Weapon is made up for the opportunity to fire the infantry Heavy Weapon and to have the infantry safe to hold objectives while the Dreadnought is safe from shooting in close combat.

Of course you're not always going to be facing I4 units, or units that can engage in Sweeping Advances (such as Assault Terminators). Such generalities that it is not worth it to try and use Combat Tactics are beside the point because there will be times you should run away and there are times that you should not.

Which brings me to another point: Honour Guard and Command Squads can engage in Sweeping Advances. Being able to engage in a Sweeping Advance is handy against normal units, but irrelevant against Fearless units. Terminators are great against Fearless units because their relatively small number of wounds caused by attacks are increased by No Retreat. But they're less effective against units that run away from them because they can't engage in Sweeping Advances.

Well I will be trying out both, since I can bring in my "Primarch Guard" from the First Company as an elite choice (see my army list in Army Lists and you'll see I've included a Terminator Squad already, easy to change that to an Ass Term squad).

The only real reason i've been trying not to have terminators in the army is the fact i'm doing a 2nd Company army. As such there should be no terminators in it.

On a side note, i'm still unconvinced about changing my Sergeant's wargear. I like the Storm Bolter/Power Fist look. And the amount of times i've seen a Sergeant fell a really powerful unit in White Dwarf battle reports (armed with a powerfist) makes me wonder if a power sword is just trying to cut points.

@Nurglitch - I am not disputing it has some limited tactical options. It just seems very lack lustre compared to Twin-Linked Melta or outflanking Attack Bikes for instance.

I have used it occasionally when I have scoring Bikes.

@Corennus - I think Storm Bolter & Power Fist is the best combo for a Sgt. However it is rather expensive and I often struggle finding the points for the Storm Bolter...

Well being in command squad means points are there to spend. and against the dreadnought the CS was sent against they decimated it in one assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just a quick question. Is there any point giving Apothecary and Standard Bearer plasma pistols?

At moment it seems they have pretty basic armament. If the squad is supposed to be able to take on anything then two plasma pistols should help.

Yes it will push the points up...

@Corennus:
Why not just give them Meltas instead...? Do you really need that extra what? 2 Basic attacks if you didn't give the special close combat attacks already?
____________
@Lyracian:
Vulkan is pretty nice.
Khan is pretty average IMO. Outflanking Attack Bikes is really meh.

Corennus wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just a quick question. Is there any point giving Apothecary and Standard Bearer plasma pistols?

At moment it seems they have pretty basic armament. If the squad is supposed to be able to take on anything then two plasma pistols should help.

Yes it will push the points up...

I've been pretty Meh about Plasma pistols of late. Personally the only time I'll consider Plasma Pistols on Infantry is if they have a BS of 5+ (which would mean better captains). If I have the choice between a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I'll choose the PW everytime. That being said if you have PPs then you do have some ample shooting before the charge. FNP (from the Apothecary) does help to minimize the chances of losing somebody to Gets Hot.

Having 4+ PP shots before the assault would be kind of handy, but I would rather negate the saves in hth. You'll just have to weigh the risks vs rewards of either option.

Well I've given my Apothecary and Standard Bearer a plasma pistol each. Means they get to do more than stand around looking pretty while their comrades are getting shot at.

And in HTH the Apothecary comes into his own with the Feel No Pain rule applied to the squad.

Plus with the Captain, Sergeant, Company Champion and CC specialist all wielding power weapons the chances are pretty stacked in their favour I think.


Oh I decided i'm not remodelling my captain. the Axe is long enough to count as a relic blade but looks cool enough as it is.
It's gonna be a "counts as"

Corennus wrote:Oh I decided i'm not remodelling my captain. the Axe is long enough to count as a relic blade but looks cool enough as it is.
It's gonna be a "counts as"

Cool, got any pictures of him? I used a Grey Knights Helbard for my Relic Blade.

Other than Dreadnoughts, I think Command Squads are the best place for Plasma. I would usually go with Plasma Guns over pistols. It does depend though if you are planning on charging.

no pics unfortunately. Haven't painted the axe yet. and need to find a Terminator Shoulder Pad for him

Sanctjud wrote:@Corennus:
Why not just give them Meltas instead...? Do you really need that extra what? 2 Basic attacks if you didn't give the special close combat attacks already?
____________
@Lyracian:
Vulkan is pretty nice.
Khan is pretty average IMO. Outflanking Attack Bikes is really meh.

If you're running a bike army, combat tactics is *way* better than outflanking.

Sanctjud wrote:@Lyracian:
Vulkan is pretty nice.
Khan is pretty average IMO. Outflanking Attack Bikes is really meh.

It is not just Attack Bikes. However I take him for the Furious Charge/Hit 'n' Run not the outflanking.
I find him wonderful jumping out of a Land Raider with a full squad of Grey Knights, Assault Terminators or pack-less Assault Marines.

Knights are best since they score and can then take the opponents objective.

Vulkan makes Melta and TH awesome...which is just awesome itself...and then...He's a beast...He can put the hurt down on a lot of things.

Shrike...YOUR SPACE MARINES HAVE FLEET?...awesome.

@Lyracian:
Again, all meh.
What he does is buff one squad. He is not of the same type/level as other force multipliers.

It doesn't change the fact that basically makes the list into a Death Star list...a trick pony list...and the kind that has pretty easy to see weaknesses.

I do agree, should one take him it's for the H&R(which can fail) and the FC, but depending on points level it's not worth it, or not making a huge impact.

Grey Templar wrote:why no Chaplain love?

the ability to grant rerolls on the charce to a single unit and he gets more wargear for his price then the Captain.

Captain gets a CCW, bolter/pistol, 4+ invuln

Chaplain gets a Power weapon, Pistol, 4+ invuln, fearless, reroll misses on charge to unit.

both cost the same.

Love Chaplains!! I field one in almost every list. Either with jump pack in a 10 man Assault Squad, or in Termy armor with a Termy Assault Squad with all Lightning Claws. They give those squads alittle extra punch, which isn't a bad thing. They have always earned thier points in one way or another. Have been thinking of sticking the Chap with my Vanguards.

Chaplains:
They disallow the use of Combat Tactics when joined.
Though the re-rolls are nice, it's only good for Assault terminator like units
Assault marines are better with him but are ultimately mehhhhh in the combat role.

Again, basically you have to dump points for Chappy, Termies, and Raider...which is frankly quite boring...but it works well enough.

Sanctjud wrote:@Lyracian:
Again, all meh.
What he does is buff one squad. He is not of the same type/level as other force multipliers.

And that sums up my view on Combat Tactics, its all meh.
Overall I find Khan to be as useful as Vulkan, YMMV.

Yea.. but to get H&R on that one squad (which fails 1/3 of the time), you give up the 'lesser' hit and run from the rest of your army...it's a big oppurtunity cost.

Vulkan is many levels higher than Khan in terms of force multiplication...everything in Vulkans' army can benefit from him... Khan, not so much, nor is it always useful.

Sanctjud wrote:Yea.. but to get H&R on that one squad (which fails 1/3 of the time), you give up the 'lesser' hit and run from the rest of your army...it's a big oppurtunity cost.

I believe it is one in six not one in three since Khan is I 5. I gain the opportunity of deciding which units to outflank depending on the opponent I am facing. To me that is much more useful than a small change of getting some troops to run away.

Sanctjud wrote:Vulkan is many levels higher than Khan in terms of force multiplication...everything in Vulkans' army can benefit from him... Khan, not so much, nor is it always useful.

Again, my view of Combat Tactics. Neither of us are going to change our minds it is just like some players love Plasma and some hate it because it might kill the user. I never said Khan was better than Vulkan, but he is much better than Combat Tactics.

Your first point is debatable.
In general when in a squad, it's majority stat for Stat Tests...with H+R it is not covered, so it's a house rule. I will err on the safe side and say majority I which would be I4...if he's alone, there's something wrong...

Outflanking is lack luster, the amount of table control is actually less than that of regular reserves.
What ever floats your boat with that.

And we will agree to disagree on Khan being better than combat tactics...Khan is a noob and basically endorses Death Star type lists.