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Browsing through some IG lists on Dakka I notice that Plasma armed vets/CCS/PCS hardly ever make an appearance. Is there a reason why? I know 5e nerfed plasma but I would think the CCS order "Bring it down!" would have helped to mitigate that (unless TL'ing doesn't work with "get's hot!"). Is there any decent plasma build for the IG these days? (primarily asking as I have a dozen plasma gunners sitting around...)

A CCS with "bring it down" drops your chances of his plasma weilding squaddies turning themselves into crispy critters down to 1/54 per shot:

Roll a one 1/6, TL'd, * roll a one again 1/6, * Fail armor save 2/3 = 1/54

If you wanted to get crazy (or don't mind ridiculously expensive squads) you could throw a medic in which lowers those odds to 1/108.

I know Meltas are cheap and in the catbird seat atm due to mech being king, but certainly there is a role for Plasma too, right? Your thoughts?

Executioner & Demolisher. Plasma or Plasma-varient weaponary. Does the job & leaves space in the CCS for melta tech.

Plasma Vets are fantastic. CCS I prefer as suicide melta and order bus for Autocannons.

As for Nerfing Plasma in 5th I am assuming that uou mean vs Vehicles
I have One in a PIS actoualy [Old Model].
As for me not taking them, the units I concider giving them to are "Assault" units and the PG would prevent Firing them and Assualting in the same turn.

IMO

Absolutely nothing wrong with the CCS using plasma. Take advantage of that BS 4. I personally prefer them in a Chimera which takes away the orders bonus unless you debus. Sure you can put the medic in there or add carapace but I personally don't mind the losses (this will differ if you play that a failed leadership test inside a vehicle results in a destroyed unit) as the fire output is respectable. I would either have the CCS with the plasma and the PCS with the melta or the other way around, however maybe the CCS with the plasma and the debus the melta if needed and "bring it down" on the melta (to get that 75% hit) from the plasma CCS in the Chimera. Either way you have options that you can use when required. It depends a bit on the rest of the list and whether you need more TEQ killy power or anti-vehicle (got vendetta's in the list etc).

I have recently been playing against a lot of DS bugs where the plasma from the Chimera have been the stars.

Forum lists are fine, but use it as a guide. Sheep just end up in a kebab.

Are you kidding? Plasma vets are fantastic; my local meta isn't too heavily mechanized, and I have 2 chimera-mounted meltavets (one with Harker for outflanking goodness) and Straken with four meltas; what they start, he finishes. Beyond that, I find with the blatant MEHREENS MEHREENS MEHREENS bias in the metagame that taking plenty of plasma helps.

Even without plasma spam, though, Guard are like the anti-Marines; the amount of AP1-3 weaponry in our Heavy Support slots alone is ridiculous, and the sheer levels of dakka the rest of the force emits each turn means that once the mehreens are out of their METAL BAWKSES, they're fodder.

I use one vet squad of each in my 1500 point army. This is, of course, mainly because I'm fairly cheap and don't like the thought of buying stuff that I'll never use. Basically, I find they generally do well, but you do have to accept that you might only have one plasma gunner left in the squad by the end of the game. - It's very important, by the way, to ensure that you're using 3 different colours of dice for each gunner, you don't want to take more casualties from overheating than you need to.

When it comes down to it I find, a space marine squad just running out of a destroyed transport are going to be far more worried about 6 plasma gun shots pointing at them, than just another 3 melta guns.

Then again, I don't play in tournaments any more serious than our local club league. And you can't take a club league too seriously when there's a chance the Super-Grots show up possessing Mega Feel no Pain.

I have a 4 plasma CCS in a Chimera. That way I don't have to disembark to BID and can go MC/light vehicle hunting with almost contemptuous ease. I try and avoid targets that I can't BID on though, as suffering even 2 overheats practically halves the effectiveness of the squad.

My CCS have killed everything from Rhinos to Trygons in a single round of shooting this way. It's so much fun seeing your opponents face as they mouth 'HOW many twin-linked plasma shots?!'

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I have a 4 plasma CCS in a Chimera. That way I don't have to disembark to BID and can go MC/light vehicle hunting with almost contemptuous ease. I try and avoid targets that I can't BID on though, as suffering even 2 overheats practically halves the effectiveness of the squad.

My CCS have killed everything from Rhinos to Trygons in a single round of shooting this way. It's so much fun seeing your opponents face as they mouth 'HOW many twin-linked plasma shots?!'

L. Wrex

Have you tried adding a plasma pistol to the Commander? It adds a shot, and he has the wounds to take an overheat or two unlike the rest of the squad.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I have a 4 plasma CCS in a Chimera. That way I don't have to disembark to BID and can go MC/light vehicle hunting with almost contemptuous ease. I try and avoid targets that I can't BID on though, as suffering even 2 overheats practically halves the effectiveness of the squad.

My CCS have killed everything from Rhinos to Trygons in a single round of shooting this way. It's so much fun seeing your opponents face as they mouth 'HOW many twin-linked plasma shots?!'

L. Wrex

You can't give a unit an order thats inside a vehicle, even if the unit is giving itself an order.

kadun wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I have a 4 plasma CCS in a Chimera. That way I don't have to disembark to BID and can go MC/light vehicle hunting with almost contemptuous ease. I try and avoid targets that I can't BID on though, as suffering even 2 overheats practically halves the effectiveness of the squad.

My CCS have killed everything from Rhinos to Trygons in a single round of shooting this way. It's so much fun seeing your opponents face as they mouth 'HOW many twin-linked plasma shots?!'

L. Wrex

You can't give a unit an order thats inside a vehicle, even if the unit is giving itself an order.

Taken from a common-sense standpoint this is beyond silly. Why would a CCS disembark from a Chimera just to issue an order to itself? It just doesn't make sense. I play that you can make the embarked squad order itself from inside a Chimera, and no-one I've encountered since can see any sensical reason why I shouldn't be able to.

Furthermore, the codex states that a unit can attempt to issue an order to 'a single friendly non-vehicle unit' (the CCS) and the rule disallowing the issuing of orders from a transport is offset by the Mobile Command rule of Chimeras.

L. Wrex

i like the Inquisitor retinue with plasma vets personally. at most i run 2 plasma IG vet squads, but only at 2000 points or more.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

kadun wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I have a 4 plasma CCS in a Chimera. That way I don't have to disembark to BID and can go MC/light vehicle hunting with almost contemptuous ease. I try and avoid targets that I can't BID on though, as suffering even 2 overheats practically halves the effectiveness of the squad.

My CCS have killed everything from Rhinos to Trygons in a single round of shooting this way. It's so much fun seeing your opponents face as they mouth 'HOW many twin-linked plasma shots?!'

L. Wrex

You can't give a unit an order thats inside a vehicle, even if the unit is giving itself an order.

Taken from a common-sense standpoint this is beyond silly. Why would a CCS disembark from a Chimera just to issue an order to itself? It just doesn't make sense. I play that you can make the embarked squad order itself from inside a Chimera, and no-one I've encountered since can see any sensical reason why I shouldn't be able to.

Furthermore, the codex states that a unit can attempt to issue an order to 'a single friendly non-vehicle unit' (the CCS) and the rule disallowing the issuing of orders from a transport is offset by the Mobile Command rule of Chimeras.

L. Wrex

Except, the rules specifically sate that you CANNOT recieve orders while embarked....period.
It doesn't matter that it is the same squad giving and recieving the orders. Sure, you can give an order while in a Chimera, but you can't recieve an order unless you are outside....plain and simple, with no ifs, ands or buts.

Tactics only work if the rules allow for them to do so, otherwise my tactic would be for my 50 man blob of guardsmen to fly 48" with their free turboboost move, while shooting cover ignoring plamsa cannon shots from their eyes...which, by the way, is just as legal as recieving orders inside a Chimera

Alerian wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

kadun wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I have a 4 plasma CCS in a Chimera. That way I don't have to disembark to BID and can go MC/light vehicle hunting with almost contemptuous ease. I try and avoid targets that I can't BID on though, as suffering even 2 overheats practically halves the effectiveness of the squad.

My CCS have killed everything from Rhinos to Trygons in a single round of shooting this way. It's so much fun seeing your opponents face as they mouth 'HOW many twin-linked plasma shots?!'

L. Wrex

You can't give a unit an order thats inside a vehicle, even if the unit is giving itself an order.

Taken from a common-sense standpoint this is beyond silly. Why would a CCS disembark from a Chimera just to issue an order to itself? It just doesn't make sense. I play that you can make the embarked squad order itself from inside a Chimera, and no-one I've encountered since can see any sensical reason why I shouldn't be able to.

Furthermore, the codex states that a unit can attempt to issue an order to 'a single friendly non-vehicle unit' (the CCS) and the rule disallowing the issuing of orders from a transport is offset by the Mobile Command rule of Chimeras.

L. Wrex

Except, the rules specifically sate that you CANNOT recieve orders while embarked....period.
It doesn't matter that it is the same squad giving and recieving the orders. Sure, you can give an order while in a Chimera, but you can't recieve an order unless you are outside....plain and simple, with no ifs, ands or buts.

Tactics only work if the rules allow for them to do so, otherwise my tactic would be for my 50 man blob of guardsmen to fly 48" with their free turboboost move, while shooting cover ignoring plamsa cannon shots from their eyes...which, by the way, is just as legal as recieving orders inside a Chimera

having 2 eyes, would those shots count as twin linked?

Alerian wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

kadun wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I have a 4 plasma CCS in a Chimera. That way I don't have to disembark to BID and can go MC/light vehicle hunting with almost contemptuous ease. I try and avoid targets that I can't BID on though, as suffering even 2 overheats practically halves the effectiveness of the squad.

My CCS have killed everything from Rhinos to Trygons in a single round of shooting this way. It's so much fun seeing your opponents face as they mouth 'HOW many twin-linked plasma shots?!'

L. Wrex

You can't give a unit an order thats inside a vehicle, even if the unit is giving itself an order.

Taken from a common-sense standpoint this is beyond silly. Why would a CCS disembark from a Chimera just to issue an order to itself? It just doesn't make sense. I play that you can make the embarked squad order itself from inside a Chimera, and no-one I've encountered since can see any sensical reason why I shouldn't be able to.

Furthermore, the codex states that a unit can attempt to issue an order to 'a single friendly non-vehicle unit' (the CCS) and the rule disallowing the issuing of orders from a transport is offset by the Mobile Command rule of Chimeras.

L. Wrex

Except, the rules specifically sate that you CANNOT recieve orders while embarked....period.
It doesn't matter that it is the same squad giving and recieving the orders. Sure, you can give an order while in a Chimera, but you can't recieve an order unless you are outside....plain and simple, with no ifs, ands or buts.

Tactics only work if the rules allow for them to do so, otherwise my tactic would be for my 50 man blob of guardsmen to fly 48" with their free turboboost move, while shooting cover ignoring plamsa cannon shots from their eyes...which, by the way, is just as legal as recieving orders inside a Chimera

Fair point. I'll concede on this, even though it does push the boundaries of 'realism' a little too far (in a futuristic table-top wargame )

I think my tactic is still sound though, it just means you have to be a little more careful with your disembarkation move to ensure TLOS etc.

L. Wrex

otherwise my tactic would be for my 50 man blob of guardsmen to fly 48" with their free turboboost move, while shooting cover ignoring plamsa cannon shots from their eyes...which, by the way, is just as legal as recieving orders inside a Chimera

having 2 eyes, would those shots count as twin linked?

sigged

Yeah, it's not that plasma guns really got any worse (I mean, they do overheat less often now), so much as they became more specialized. Old codex, 4th ed, if you were bringing special weapons, there was never a reason to take any special weapons other than plasma guns, so every list used to contain a LOT of plasma. Now, it's more nuanced - people are only taking plasma against targets that plasma is specifically good against. It's not so much a case of plasma being the nurfed so much as it is a drop from plasma-gun-only to reasonable levels of plasma mixed with other weapons.

I mean, clustered plasma guns are still one of our finest weapons for taking out MCs, terminators, etc. so I've still definitely seen lists that contain SOME plasma as a contingency against these kinds of units.

I enjoy plasma with my Vets, and my Kasrkins

I run my veet squads with Plasma in my Mech IG. I have Vendettas/Hydras/Manticores/2c CCS (with 4 meltas) to deal with armor, and the plasma guns are fine against light armor when needed. I started with Melta in my vet squads but found myself simply wanting a bit more volume of fire from my low AP weapons.

I also run 0 Leman Russ hulls in my mech list.

Caffran9 wrote:I run my veet squads with Plasma in my Mech IG. I have Vendettas/Hydras/Manticores/2c CCS (with 4 meltas) to deal with armor, and the plasma guns are fine against light armor when needed. I started with Melta in my vet squads but found myself simply wanting a bit more volume of fire from my low AP weapons.

I also run 0 Leman Russ hulls in my mech list.

That means you're doing it right

Move 12" Disembark 2" and throw 8 plasma gun shots with bring it down against a monstrous creature=Dead deamon prince.

If one of my deamon princes gets within 26" of a Chimera with a plasma CCS it's probably dead.

It works even better against tyranids who have no invo.

Actually, I think plasma guns work best in line squads, especially if they are blobbed together as a fire base. They work well with bring it down against light armor and MCs, both of which are very prevalent. I don't really see any other special weapon working as well in this role.

As for vets/CCS, if they are advancing to get objectives, they need the most versatile tool available, and meltas can handle anything. Sure, plasma is better against many targets, but it's helpless against others, and that's just not good enough. Melta is a legitimate threat to everything, and range isn't as much of an issue, as the vehicle is moving every turn anyway, so it's always at 12".

Add in the fact that plasma cost 50% more than melta, and the justification for plasma is even tougher to find.

The justification is 2x shots, or 2x range. The only thing melta is going to be able to do better is Av13+. Basically SM, CSM, and Necrons are the only races with solid Av13+ vehicles (Dreds, Land Raiders, Monoliths, etc). And in those cases, the plasma is going to be fantastic for spanking the Marines and/or Termies.

4 shots with melta, and you have a chance to make a few kills. 8 shots with plasma and you have a chance to break a squad. (Again, the exception to this is heavy armor, but a Manticore, Vendetta, or any number of very common options in our army can wreck Av14 pretty easily.)

There is absolutely no reason why a list shouldn't have a smattering of plasma, whether it be plasma vets/CCS, or a Executioner... you just need to have some.

Lt Lathrop wrote:There is absolutely no reason why a list shouldn't have a smattering of plasma, whether it be plasma vets/CCS, or a Executioner... you just need to have some.

Plasma....don't leave home without it!

Lt Lathrop wrote:The justification is 2x shots, or 2x range. The only thing melta is going to be able to do better is Av13+. Basically SM, CSM, and Necrons are the only races with solid Av13+ vehicles (Dreds, Land Raiders, Monoliths, etc). And in those cases, the plasma is going to be fantastic for spanking the Marines and/or Termies.

4 shots with melta, and you have a chance to make a few kills. 8 shots with plasma and you have a chance to break a squad. (Again, the exception to this is heavy armor, but a Manticore, Vendetta, or any number of very common options in our army can wreck Av14 pretty easily.)

There is absolutely no reason why a list shouldn't have a smattering of plasma, whether it be plasma vets/CCS, or a Executioner... you just need to have some.

You're forgetting the other benefit of melta: instant death. Comes into play more often than you'd expect.

I use my only plasma guns in my CCS, together with a medic and carapace armour, mounted in a chimera. I use them in this way because they kill themselves surprisingly fast when rapid firing, and they do that a lot. Three plasma guns with a medic and carapce armour will put out more shots in the long run than simply 4 plasma guns (Without orders! That is just an assumption, go ahead and prove me wrong.) The carapace armour is mostly to avoid dying to flamers and bolters if the chimera bites it, because if they are in rapid fire distance of marines, the marines can also rapid fire at them - without cover they die right away. The gunners rapid fire a lot because I'm playing almost entirely against very agressive MEQ's in my FLGS, so I use them mainly for gunning down advancing troops in power armour and the occational daemon or dreadnaught when they are stupid enough to deep strike in the wrong place. When rapid firing, they do put out twice the number of shots than meltaguns do, at only a 50% price increase. So far the medic is a good investment, since he has saved numerous of unfortunate plasma-gunners' lives.

And the AP of 1.
Not really relevant against non-vehicles, but delightful against AV-models.

Grimaldi wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:The justification is 2x shots, or 2x range. The only thing melta is going to be able to do better is Av13+. Basically SM, CSM, and Necrons are the only races with solid Av13+ vehicles (Dreds, Land Raiders, Monoliths, etc). And in those cases, the plasma is going to be fantastic for spanking the Marines and/or Termies.

4 shots with melta, and you have a chance to make a few kills. 8 shots with plasma and you have a chance to break a squad. (Again, the exception to this is heavy armor, but a Manticore, Vendetta, or any number of very common options in our army can wreck Av14 pretty easily.)

There is absolutely no reason why a list shouldn't have a smattering of plasma, whether it be plasma vets/CCS, or a Executioner... you just need to have some.

You're forgetting the other benefit of melta: instant death. Comes into play more often than you'd expect.

So 6-8 plasma shots versus 3-4 melta shots... means I can kill, 8 max single wound models... or 4 max 2 wound models... where as, melta can kill 4 max single wound models, and 4 double wound models, so long as they are T4 or less. So in any situation except where you are facing 3+ wound models, that have less than T4... plasma is still better.

Lt Lathrop wrote:The justification is 2x shots, or 2x range. The only thing melta is going to be able to do better is Av13+. Basically SM, CSM, and Necrons are the only races with solid Av13+ vehicles (Dreds, Land Raiders, Monoliths, etc). And in those cases, the plasma is going to be fantastic for spanking the Marines and/or Termies.

Ignoring AP1 = not realizing where the real value of melta resides = fail.

Lt Lathrop wrote:

Grimaldi wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:The justification is 2x shots, or 2x range. The only thing melta is going to be able to do better is Av13+. Basically SM, CSM, and Necrons are the only races with solid Av13+ vehicles (Dreds, Land Raiders, Monoliths, etc). And in those cases, the plasma is going to be fantastic for spanking the Marines and/or Termies.

4 shots with melta, and you have a chance to make a few kills. 8 shots with plasma and you have a chance to break a squad. (Again, the exception to this is heavy armor, but a Manticore, Vendetta, or any number of very common options in our army can wreck Av14 pretty easily.)

There is absolutely no reason why a list shouldn't have a smattering of plasma, whether it be plasma vets/CCS, or a Executioner... you just need to have some.

You're forgetting the other benefit of melta: instant death. Comes into play more often than you'd expect.

So 6-8 plasma shots versus 3-4 melta shots... means I can kill, 8 max single wound models... or 4 max 2 wound models... where as, melta can kill 4 max single wound models, and 4 double wound models, so long as they are T4 or less. So in any situation except where you are facing 3+ wound models, that have less than T4... plasma is still better.

Against nids Melta can be valuable for killing the 3 wound t4 warriors which will get you more bang for your buck.