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yeah, don't bring plasma guns to kill vehicles. Not only are they cruddy at it, but those plasma guns really should be shooting at other stuff.

With the plasma gun you get good against heavy non-vehicle and cruddy against most vehicles, and with the melta you get okay against heavy non-vehicle and good against vehicles (for cheaper, to boot). Plus, lots of stuff can help with things plama guns are good against, but there generally aren't as many good alternatives to melta.

of course, if you're using them specifically to take down things that plasma is good against, then all well and good, but there's a reason people don't always just plasma spam everything anymore.

My AP2 needs are usually taken care of by the vendettas, executioner, plentiful demo charges, and then just sheer volume of fire.

With everyone and their mother going more and more mechanized (Blood Angels players apparently dispensing with their badass troops to spam razorbacks and predators, and depending on whether this Spearhead expansion will have a troop-element), meltas will be even more crucial. That's not to say that the only special weapons I take are meltas, I have an unhealthy obsession with flamers. If we're talking Marines in cover, a flamer will outperform a BS4 rapid-firing plasmagun if you can cover at least 3 (if 4+ cover) or 5 (if 5+) models. My favorite unit in the army is my platoon command squad with 4 flamers. The amount of devastation this 50-point unit can inflict is outrageous.

Terminus wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:The justification is 2x shots, or 2x range. The only thing melta is going to be able to do better is Av13+. Basically SM, CSM, and Necrons are the only races with solid Av13+ vehicles (Dreds, Land Raiders, Monoliths, etc). And in those cases, the plasma is going to be fantastic for spanking the Marines and/or Termies.

Ignoring AP1 = not realizing where the real value of melta resides = fail.

The real value of melta? You mean, killing Av13 and Av14? The one thing I already mentioned plasma couldn't do? I am pretty sure that as an IG player, I have a lot more options for killing Av13 and Av14 in my army than I do ways to get lots of single shots against squads with Sv3+ or Sv2+. Vendetta, with 3x TL Lascannon is a great example of, ways we can take out tanks... from 4' away, without needing a melta suicide squad. We have a ton of S10 ordinance artillery weapons you can pick from too. Also plain lascannon, admittedly not the most effective way to take out Av14, are a dime a dozen in IG lists. However, plasmaguns are basically the only way to achieve volume of AP2 shots in our army. Sure we could use plasma cannon, but you will never be able to do as much damage with a small blast, and as squads get smaller, small blasts become less effective. Plasma, as I said, is simply twice as effective at taking out heavy infantry as melta is. Sure melta can be used to take down heavy infantry... but plasma can also be used to take down light vehicles. Melta isn't best for infantry, plasma isn't best for vehicles. The point was... you still can't leave home without a good portion of plasma, no more than you can leave home without a way to pop Av14 (whether it be melta or otherwise).

"Ignoring melta is only good against vehicles, and armies aren't made of only vehicles = not realizing where the real value of plasma resides = fail."
See? I can do that too... doesn't mean anything.

Norade wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:

Grimaldi wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:The justification is 2x shots, or 2x range. The only thing melta is going to be able to do better is Av13+. Basically SM, CSM, and Necrons are the only races with solid Av13+ vehicles (Dreds, Land Raiders, Monoliths, etc). And in those cases, the plasma is going to be fantastic for spanking the Marines and/or Termies.

4 shots with melta, and you have a chance to make a few kills. 8 shots with plasma and you have a chance to break a squad. (Again, the exception to this is heavy armor, but a Manticore, Vendetta, or any number of very common options in our army can wreck Av14 pretty easily.)

There is absolutely no reason why a list shouldn't have a smattering of plasma, whether it be plasma vets/CCS, or a Executioner... you just need to have some.

You're forgetting the other benefit of melta: instant death. Comes into play more often than you'd expect.

So 6-8 plasma shots versus 3-4 melta shots... means I can kill, 8 max single wound models... or 4 max 2 wound models... where as, melta can kill 4 max single wound models, and 4 double wound models, so long as they are T4 or less. So in any situation except where you are facing 3+ wound models, that have less than T4... plasma is still better.

Against nids Melta can be valuable for killing the 3 wound t4 warriors which will get you more bang for your buck.

Yea, and that is pretty much the only example I could think of too... so when I go fight that list made of nothing but warriors... I will make sure to pack a lot of melta. Wait, no I won't, I'll blow them away with Manticore/Basilisk/Lascannon fire... which every IG commander has plenty of.

I run two ccs, loaded up with plasma and a medic and mounted in chimera. I have two plasma gunners waiting in the wings to possibly replace the medics. They've proven themselves by dealing with rampaging CC termies and nobz.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
Fair point. I'll concede on this, even though it does push the boundaries of 'realism' a little too far (in a futuristic table-top wargame )

L. Wrex

What does realism have to do with it? It's a game mechanic (ie rule).They do not have to be based in reality.

I personally find that one squad of vets with 3x plasma and a missile launcher (for when I shoot at vehicles) and an armoured sentinel with plasma cannon provide me with the AP2 goodness that I need, but I also play lots of lascannons and a mech vet squad with melta to deal with vehicles.

Lt Lathrop wrote:

Terminus wrote:

Lt Lathrop wrote:The justification is 2x shots, or 2x range. The only thing melta is going to be able to do better is Av13+. Basically SM, CSM, and Necrons are the only races with solid Av13+ vehicles (Dreds, Land Raiders, Monoliths, etc). And in those cases, the plasma is going to be fantastic for spanking the Marines and/or Termies.

Ignoring AP1 = not realizing where the real value of melta resides = fail.

The real value of melta? You mean, killing Av13 and Av14? The one thing

And another fail. The value of meltaguns is not the additional die to penetrate, it's the AP1. That +1 on the damage chart makes all the difference against ALL vehicles, not just AV13-14. If you're just looking at chances to penetrate, you are missing half the picture. But yes, you can't just rely on meltas to kill everything in their army, which is why I mentioned all those things like flamers/executioners/vendettas/manticores/demo charges/et al that kill heavy infantry as well or far better than the expensive overheating plasmaguns.

That said, I do like taking three plasma warriors along with my Inquisitor. They get the gun for 5 points cheaper and get targeters for free, it's a steal.